517: The Fastest Way to Get Fit in 2024 with Ulrich Dempfle

Hal Elrod: Hey, Ulrich. Welcome to the podcast, my friend.

Ulrich Dempfle: Thank you. It was great to be here.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. So, the meeting today, I feel like the conversation, I really want to understand your background and what got you to become the CEO and founder of CAROL Bike. Because when I looked into your story, it was fascinating because your background is in mechanical engineering, right? Not only that but you started in Germany’s automotive industry. So, talk about your background and what led you to the work that you’re doing now in the fitness industry if you will.

Ulrich Dempfle: Pure coincidence. So, it was really just by chance as life is. So, right, I’m a mechanical engineer by background and I grew up in German automotive industry, so I worked for all the German carmakers, the big brands. And then for very personal reasons, wanted to relocate from Germany to London to be with my partner, and basically started working in health care and worked for many years with hospitals, with health plans, payors on making health care better and more cost effective. And the only way to make health care better and more cost-effective is prevention, how to prevent people getting ill. And so, what we did was my founders, co-founders, and I, we designed and managed chronic disease management programs for people with conditions like heart disease or type 2 diabetes. And if you look at what really helps those people and what really shifts the needle, the most powerful intervention is exercise.

So, exercise has so many benefits and would do so many good things for everybody and for the patients we’ve had at the time that we were really keen to get them to work out but we couldn’t. We really struggled and this is a struggle I had personally as well. So, the will was there, the understanding was there, all the benefits were there. So, there is such a strong case to exercise but people just don’t do it. And if you ask why people don’t exercise, there are scientific surveys about this, the number one answer is always lack of time. So, the number one perceived barrier to exercise is lack of time. And it means that less than 5% of Americans meet government guidelines for aerobic exercise.

Hal Elrod: Wow.

Ulrich Dempfle: And that’s what we were confronted with and that we did not have a solution for. And then this is now over ten years ago. In 2012, we stumbled across really very compelling science about how that barrier could be overcome. And that was we saw a BBC documentary about REHIIT, Reduced Exertion High-Intensity Interval Training. And literally, I fell in love on first sight and I wanted to do this exercise for myself and we wanted to get this exercise to make it available for our patients. The very next day when I saw the show, I went to a fitness equipment store and bought myself an exercise bike, one that had met all the criteria that were described in the program. And I tried to do it myself and it was just nothing like what was presented there, which was just very disappointing. But we contacted the professors that were featured on that show and asked them, “Why is it so much different than what you’ve shown?” And the very first thing they said was, “Well, you need a special bike,” and they failed to mention that on the show, which was odd.

But, yes, so we found out about the science of REHIIT and what equipment they used in scientific labs and how that was just not available to normal consumers. So, in their labs, they had research equipment that was, first, quite expensive like $10,000, $15,000. And then really the critical thing was those bikes were operated by a second person. So, you needed a lab technician by your side to precisely operate it so that you could perform this miracle exercise, reduced exertion HIIT, and that was just not very useful. And having an engineering background and being rather practical about it, we thought, “Well, maybe we can solve this.” So, we saw what looked to us like a huge gap in the market and then, yeah, some ten years ago had this slightly crazy idea. Why don’t we build a bike that makes this amazing scientific insight and the benefits from it available for normal consumers? And that’s basically how CAROL Bike started. And it took a long time. I mean, it’s over ten years ago to get to where we are now but that’s the genesis.

Hal Elrod: And at the time when you decided to make this leap and create this technology or utilize your engineering background, you were in chronic disease management at that point?

Ulrich Dempfle: That’s right. So, we had a consulting firm working with the NHS, that’s the National Health Service in England, and also health services abroad to design and manage chronic disease management programs. So, there was really a cohort of patients that desperately needed to get some exercise and didn’t do it. And so, we thought we put two and two together and thought like that must be part of the answer.

Hal Elrod: Interesting. So, your team reached out to me a few months ago and offered to send me a CAROL Bike to try. Initially, I was hesitant because I had friends that had Peloton bikes and a few years ago I thought, “I’m not going to invest thousands of dollars in a Peloton bike because I don’t know if I’ll use it.” And so, I went on Amazon and I spent a few hundred dollars on like just a cheap little exercise bike and I thought, “Okay. Let me see if I actually use it. And if I use it, then I’ll invest in a nicer expensive bike.” And I didn’t use it, so I never invested. So, I was like, “I’ve already tried the biking thing,” but your team just said, “Hey, look, no risk. Like, try it for a month. If you don’t like it, we’ll take it back.” I’m like, “All right. Nothing to lose.” And the very first workout that I did, I was hooked. I used the tiger track. So, for those that are listening that don’t know what I’m talking about, so on the CAROL Bike it’s really cool. It’s this really high-tech advanced bike. It’s got a screen on it and the workouts are as little as 8 minutes. Are some of it even less?

Ulrich Dempfle: You can do it in as little as 5 minutes. That’s right. And the key thing is that it has really, really short sprints. So, just through 20-second sprints really. That’s the thing.

Hal Elrod: That’s it. So, I’m pedaling along and there’s this woman’s voice and she goes, “You’re going on a safari. You’re going through the jungle,” but she’s very descriptive. And you see off to the left is the trees and there’s birds.” And I’m like, “This is really nice.” And then on the video screen, there’s this breath monitor that’s like, breathe in, breathe out. So, it’s managing my breath perfectly. And then I’ve got this audio track that is keeping me entertained. And then she goes, it’s like the two-minute mark, she goes, “Oh my gosh. Oh, in the brush, it’s a tiger. What? It’s coming at you. Run. Go. Drive, Bike as fast as you can.” And like it’s so amazing, the psychology. I go, “Uh, ah!” And I’m just biking and biking. “Hurry. Faster, faster. It’s going to catch you.” And then all of a sudden, like you said, it’s only 20 or 30 seconds of a sprint and then, “Oh, okay, pedal softly. You’re out of danger.” And then you go back on this really nice journey and you’re just listening to her voice and hearing the birds chirp.

And then after another couple of minutes of just pedaling at your own pace. “Wait, the tiger’s back.” And then I’m sprinting again. But it’s like the workout was done in 8 minutes and I didn’t feel like I had but I felt like I had got an amazing workout. And one of my goals this year is to improve my cardiovascular ability. I ran an ultramarathon, a double marathon years ago. Since then, I’ve lifted weights, but I feel like my stamina is not where it needs to be. If I have to run somewhere, I can run for about 30 seconds maybe, and then, “Okay. Okay. Now, I got to walk.” So, it was perfect timing because I knew that one of my goals in 2024 is to increase my stamina, my cardiovascular ability. And I was like, “This is perfect. This is fun. This is easy. It’s only 8 minutes a few times a week.” And so, I’ve loved it. And so, I guess I’d love to hear your experience because I know you use the bike. I’ve heard you’ve improved your cardiovascular fitness by, what, 50%?

Ulrich Dempfle: Yeah, even more than that by now. That’s right. So, when I started and I have to admit in my younger years, yes, I was into sports but more for fun than to compete. And then in my thirties, I probably neglected that part and was really just focused on family and job. And then when I turned 40, slowly something changed. My outlook on exercise changed. I took it kind of more, I don’t want to say serious, but more mindful about the actual purpose like more purpose-driven, the exercise. And I improved my VO2 max by over 50%. I’m now…

Hal Elrod: Explain. What does that mean, your VO2 max?

Ulrich Dempfle: Oh, I’m sorry. So, my ability or everybody’s ability to burn, to metabolize oxygen while exercising and it’s basically a measure for your cardiorespiratory fitness. And it is, I’m going to go all out now, it’s the most important health marker. So, it’s the strongest correlate to life expectancy and is really the most fundamental health marker that we have. And I’ve improved mine by over 50%. I’m now in the top 6%, 7% for my age group.

Hal Elrod: How old are you, by the way?

Ulrich Dempfle: I’m 46. Yeah.

Hal Elrod: I’m 44 so we’re similar.

Ulrich Dempfle: Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, I’m probably quite representative of our, like, average type user. So, we’re more for people who, yeah, approach exercise with specific objectives who want to improve their fitness, who want to improve their health, who care about the results rather than… I mean the experience as you’ve described it is actually so there’s like we have a slightly playful approach to that as well but it’s about giving you maximum results in minimum time. So, that’s what it is about. And the experience that you’ve described is, I mean, in some ways it explains also why it works because what we do, we simulate a very brief but we simulate a fight or flight situation. So, where you have to run for your life or fight for your life and where your energy demand basically explodes and goes up by a factor of 100 compared to rest. And that explosive change in energy demand forces your body to use like a different type of fuel and mobilize what’s called muscular glycogen that’s locally stored in your muscles that can access that very rapidly and has to access it very rapidly.

And with that, with mobilizing this muscular glycogen, it releases certain signaling molecules that are bound to the glycogen, and those molecules signal to your body that it has to get fitter and stronger. And that’s why you can achieve very remarkable results and create basically the most potent training stimulus with just two 20-second sprints. And you’ve said that it’s easy. I hesitate to call it easy. So, it’s very simple because the bike is fully automated and is controlled and it sets the optimal resistance at the optimal time, applies it very rapidly. You’ve guided through it. So, it’s simple in a way and because it’s so personalized, it’s for any age and fitness level but it’s not easy because you do really have to push to your limits very briefly. But you push to your limits and that creates that powerful training stimulus. And once you’ve tried it, you will feel it is a proper exercise, so it is a proper workout, but you can do it very, very quickly and it therefore fitted into almost any schedule. And that’s what makes it much more accessible than, say, traditional longer cardio.

Hal Elrod: And so, we’re talking, I think, about the fitness aspect, obviously. What about the longevity aspect? And before you answer that, let me say I’m currently co-authoring the Miracle Morning for Seniors book right now. And my coauthor, Dwayne Clark, he is an expert in longevity. He studied all of the blue zones and those that live to be 100-plus years old, the centenarians. And so, he and I were talking the other day about longevity and about these people who live to be 100 years old. I’m curious on that piece. So, this REHIIT technology or just cardiovascular exercise in general, how does that benefit not just fitness but also longevity?

Ulrich Dempfle: Yeah. So, I repeat the thing about VO2 max being the strongest correlate to life expectancy. And research has shown that an improvement of your VO2 max by 10% adds, on average, two years of healthy life expectancy to your lifespan. So, it’s very significant. That’s a 10% improvement. You can achieve such an improvement. So, we see in our data and scientists have shown in numerous studies now in their labs that you see about a 12% improvement on average in the first eight weeks. And then if you continue, you can see roughly the same improvement over 20 weeks total. So, another 12 weeks. So, you get a very marked improvement in this, yeah, most fundamental health and longevity marker. That’s incredibly important. And so, that’s kind of the statistics about it also in terms of how you feel and just how capable you are. So, as we age, our VO2 max, our cardiorespiratory fitness, declines on average by 10% per decade post-30. So, after the age of 30, we decline about 10% per decade on average.

So, in only eight weeks you can basically turn back the clock on your fitness by over a decade through… So, the exercise can be done in 5 minutes. The maximum it takes is 8 minutes, 40 seconds. So, it’s very brief. You only have to do it 2 to 3 times per week. And then over 8 weeks, you see those marked improvements. So, it’s really quite remarkable what can be achieved. The other and this is just because exercise is so profound and fundamental that there are many other benefits as well. The other kind of really fundamental thing is metabolic health. So, studies have shown that also over eight weeks you can reduce your risk of developing metabolic diseases like type 2 diabetes by 62%. So, that’s very fundamental. That’s very significant. That’s the same improvement you’d expect from taking prescription drugs like metformin just without the side effects of metformin. This is quite popular in longevity in people who care about longevity and to optimize that but it’s not without side effects. So, there’s pros and cons to it.

With exercise, you can achieve the same benefits just without the cons, without the side effects. And then there’s a long list of other benefits. So, it’s good for your brain health. It’s good for your mental health. It can offset some of the deleterious effects of lack of sleep. But that just reflects that exercise is so important and it offers basically the benefits of exercise in a very, very compressed amount of time.

Hal Elrod: Talk about the brain health piece because that, for me, I had brain damage when I was 20 from a car accident and then I went through three years of chemotherapy that just wreaked havoc on my brain. And so, yeah, I’d love to know the brain health piece because I think for me, I’m a big believer in the mind-body connection and I think that when we’re aware of a benefit or why we’re doing something, I think we’re more likely to get the benefit, right? You can also get a benefit without you being aware of it. So, for me, I would love to understand better the brain health so that when I’m doing the bike every day like I understand what it’s doing for my brain.

Ulrich Dempfle: Yes. Yes, of course. So, I think there are multiple aspects to it. So, there’s like, say, the physiological aspects of brain health. There’s a large body of scientific evidence that shows that exercise supports the release of BDNF. So, that’s brain-derived neurotrophic factor. And greater increases have been reported with higher-intensity exercises. BDNF, and I’m a mechanical engineer as you introduced me in the beginning, but BDNF helps to keep the brain young. So, higher plasma BDNF levels are associated with better cognitive performance, attention, memory, whereas lower BDNF levels are found in patients with dementia, cognitive impairment, and so on. And so, BDNF is very important for brain health and the evidence, so there was a recent study, for example, that showed that short high-intensity sessions increased BDNF four to five times more than light or moderate intensity exercise conducted for much longer periods. So, there’s good evidence and emerging evidence to show that high-intensity exercise basically improves or helps with brain health through that pathway. So, that’s the more physiological aspect.

And then there’s the mental health aspect, and there’s also growing a large body of evidence by now that exercise is as effective or more effective in treating anxiety and depression as psychotherapy or medication. And again, it appears that higher-intensity exercise is more effective than low or moderate-intensity exercise. And so, this is the complex interactions and I don’t think these are fully understood but one factor that’s thought to contribute to that is lactate. So, that when you do anaerobic, high-intensity exercise, you produce a lot of lactate that gets transported in the brain and plays a role there in the production of certain molecules like serotonin and norepinephrine that help with anxiety and depression. If you have lower levels of those, it can lead to anxiety, lower inhibitory control, and so on. And so, higher intensity exercise creates that connection that may explain the greater effectiveness in basically alleviating anxiety and depression.

Hal Elrod: So, that’s fascinating and it makes a lot of sense. I’m wondering I’m thinking about another thing. This is a selfish question for me. I feel like as I’m getting older, my testosterone is going down. It’s harder for me to keep muscle mass on. Is there any correlation between the REHIIT training and testosterone?

Ulrich Dempfle: So, I think the science on that is mixed, I would say. I’ve looked at my own without kind of breaching my own private… No, so I think when I look at my blood markers, I suspect it does, and exercise, especially also strength training certainly are helpful. But as I understand it, and we have discussed that with our scientific advisors, the really hard-core scientific evidence is not clear cut on testosterone. So, I wouldn’t want to go out on a limb and promise much higher T levels afterwards. But what I can say and that we have our own research and this is due to be published soon is that, yes, for strength, it is actually very relevant. So, these REHIIT sprints are performed at such high-intensity levels, even though they are so short that they are actually relevant for muscular gain and strength. And so, for example, in terms of one rep max of squats to measure lower limb strength, this is a very new study that hasn’t been published yet, but I’ve seen the manuscript, we saw improvements of 13%, 14% also after only eight weeks.

So, that’s quite remarkable as well and is a meaningful improvement in strength. Now, it’s good to hear that you’re lifting as well. I love lifting. And I think everybody should lift something heavy at least once a week. And so, generally, so we don’t want to say that, “Oh, all you need to do is CAROL.” No. There’s more. So, CAROL is one thing to get cardio done very quickly, very efficiently but there’s also strength and there’s also flexibility and stability training that should kind of be included in a comprehensive program. But for lower limb strength, absolutely, CAROL and REHIIT does add to it and will support it.

Hal Elrod: Remind me what REHIIT stands for again.

Ulrich Dempfle: So, it’s Reduced Exertion High-Intensity Interval Training. Everybody will have heard about HIIT and so high-intensity interval training and the reduced exertion is not that you do it at a lower intensity level. No. It’s just that you do it like it is very, very short intervals, only two 20-second sprints. So, traditional interval training, so the effectiveness is beyond any doubt and has been shown very comprehensively. It’s just the rate of perceived exertion is actually so high that it’s not so easy to do for many people. And so, scientists basically went over decades trials to find how little do you have to do to get the benefits, what’s basically the minimum effective dose and two 20-second sprints seem to be that sweet spot that is enough to trigger the adaptation. Yeah. But you don’t need to do more. Actually, this is really almost bizarre, I would say, or at least very, very remarkable. It appears that doing more sprints or longer sprints doesn’t help more but actually delivers less benefits. And this is slightly puzzling.

So, if you did not do two 20-second sprints but you did six 30-second sprints or six 40-second sprints or eight 40-second sprints, the current scientific understanding is that you’ll get less benefits. And the presumed explanation is that once you know you have to do more and longer sprints, psychology kicks in and you start to pace yourself. You don’t push to your limits but you go like 80% or 90% but you don’t go 100%. Whereas two 20-second sprints are so short that it’s entirely feasible to really go all out, to go 100% for those two short periods. For me, and this is a personal thing, but this is also what I hear from our users that like the saying no pain, no gain still applies a little bit.

Hal Elrod: My legs are burning. After those 20 seconds, they are burning.

Ulrich Dempfle: Yeah, exactly. So, for me, it works like this. The first 10, 15 seconds, I can push through the sprint without actually feeling pain or like I just push as hard as I can. And then the last 5 seconds, I feel my legs burning but then I’m almost through it so I can push to the end. And then I have a recovery. I’m breathing heavily and so on. But the recovery actually is always quite nice if the pain goes away. Yeah. So, two 20-second sprints is something for me that’s short enough to just go all out. Now, the other thing to say is so this is highly personalized. So, my mom is 80 and she does it every other day, but she obviously doesn’t do it with my intensity levels and my resistance levels. She does it appropriately for an 80-year-old. So, if I look at her values, they look much different. But she can do it as well because it’s highly personalized and so she goes to her limits, which are much lower than mine, but she can still do it.

And we offer a range of different variations so you can also do it with two 10-second sprints or two 15 seconds or three 15 seconds to basically help users or riders find something that’s sustainable and that they can adhere to because that’s the holy grail of exercise is finding something that’s sustainable for you and that you can do. So, all the benefits that I’ve listed earlier is wonderful. You can achieve them in 6 to 8 weeks and they’re really noticeable. You can feel them, you feel better. But the sad thing is if you stop exercising, you lose them as well in about the same timeframe. So, they’re not sticky. Exercise is something you have to do consistently and so therefore adherence is really our number one goal. Obviously, we want everybody to have these fitness gains and metabolic health benefits and so on. They follow on automatically if you manage to stick to it. So, adherence is our number one goal.

Hal Elrod: That makes sense. And the easier it is, the more fun it is, right, the better. So, I have a question for you though. Can you do REHIIT on a standard exercise bike?

Ulrich Dempfle: So, if it was possible then we wouldn’t have founded CAROL. So, the thing is, to do it right and to have a good experience, you need to apply the optimal resistance or at least the right resistance at the right time. And that is after you’ve accelerated already to a high pedal cadence and to a high pedal speed at low resistance and then you need to apply it very rapidly. So, if you have to turn a button or knob or a lever while you’re spinning at top speed is very difficult. And so, I couldn’t do it and I couldn’t achieve it. That’s not how the researchers did the science in their labs, and we find it not practical and it’s just not a good experience. Whereas with a CAROL Bike, it’s fully automated. It’s optimized for you. It gets adjusted as you get fitter and stronger so that the exercise basically changes and gets easier or harder depending on your fitness levels. You’re guided through the workouts. You get tracking metrics. You see there your progress. You will also feel your progress and that makes it just an optimal solution for REHIIT.

So, yeah, we’re fully optimized for REHIIT. By now, many or several of the leading labs actually use our bikes for their research. So, we stayed in contact with those researchers and they’re doing their research also on CAROL Bike now because it’s just easier for them to do this in their lab if it doesn’t require a lab technician or an exercise physiologist to supervise every single session. And that’s what we offer. We offer an optimal REHIIT experience. Now, I should say, it doesn’t only do that. It’s actually also a very versatile bike. You can use like it has many other kind of workout types on it. You can use it, if you so want, with apps like Peloton Digital or Netflix, Disney Plus, whatever, or you can use all the popular cycling apps on it. So, it’s a very versatile bike as well. But what we have optimized our bike for is REHIIT. We really want to give the best REHIIT experience that you could possibly have.

Hal Elrod: And I got to ask one question. That was a big question for me, and I would imagine anybody listening. Peloton. Peloton is that for me is the one that I knew. I never heard of CAROL Bike before. And so, if I’m looking between a CAROL and a Peloton, is the REHIIT that the big difference or why CAROL Bike over Peloton?

Ulrich Dempfle: So, obviously, there are some people for whom a Peloton bike will be better. And so, Peloton clearly if you want like banging soundtracks, celebrity instructors, and the ability to high-five other users as you share a class, then Peloton is for you. So, we wish them very well. I hope they do wonderfully well. That’s good for everybody. And I think they have a very nice product so no complaints there. But that is kind of what they offer. What we offer is maximum health and fitness benefits in minimum time. So, we’re all about results and achieving those basically maximum results in minimum time. And the thing is, so I’m sure like I do Peloton classes from time to time.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, because you can subscribe on the CAROL Bike on the screen. I haven’t done that but you can actually have Peloton classes on the screen on the CAROL Bike.

Ulrich Dempfle: Exactly. That’s one thing we chose. Our bike is compatible with a whole range of different apps. So, like for cycling enthusiasts, they love Zwift or ROUVY or Kinomap. Those are kind of you can participate in virtual cycling races and so on. So, we want it to be fairly open, not a closed platform, but fairly open so that you can do whatever you enjoy. And so, yes, you can install the Peloton Digital app very easy with a couple of clicks and then use the bike also to participate in Peloton Digital classes. That’s not why people buy us. People don’t buy CAROL Bikes because they want to participate in Peloton classes. That would not be great. It would just be the wrong choice. Then buy a Peloton bike by all means. But most people don’t have two bikes in a household and we think so that the bike can be used for all members of a household, for example. It’s useful to have that versatility that the primary user is focused on REHIIT, but others may want to do other things. So, if you have children or teenagers, they want to do something else or your partner wants to do something else, then that’s a good choice.

Hal Elrod: Awesome. I have I think one last question unless I think of anything else and it’s again, for anybody listening and they’re wondering, could I achieve the same benefits with other types of cardio? Because again, my goal this year is to increase my cardiovascular abilities. Could you just do that going for a walk or a jog or run every day?

Ulrich Dempfle: Yeah, sure. So, let me be really brief on that. So, I would not suggest to try REHIIT on a treadmill, a stepper, an elliptical, or a rowing machine. I think my primary concern would be about just safety. So, I don’t think it would be safe for most people to do these explosive all-out sprints on a treadmill, for example. I’ve covered already a normal exercise bike. One thing that’s an interesting alternative, and if your gym has that, it’s probably a good thing to try out if you have it at home is an air bike. So, the CrossFit community likes air bikes. You can achieve the kind of high power outputs and relatively fast increase in power on an air bike. And so, this might be a good alternative but an air bike is essentially a bike with one gear, so it’s one defined relationship between pedal speed and power. And so, that may be great for a 30-year-old CrossFit athlete. It certainly wouldn’t be great for my now 80-year-old mother because she needs a different resistance setting.

And so, CAROL has 255 gears and continuously personalizes the exercise. So, the air bike if you have access to one, it’s a good alternative to try it. And then the last thing, just a sprint track. So, literally to go for a jog and then mix in short about 20 seconds for sprint, short all-out sprints. If your joints can do it, if you’re confident about the trip hazard and you’re not embarrassed, that’s just actually, I think a pretty important point because I never see in my local park people do all-out sprints. If you’re okay with that, I think that’s a very low-cost and probably effective alternative.

Hal Elrod: Got it. Ulrich, man, your story it’s really cool. I love that, you know, it reminds me of kind of like Miracle Morning, my book. It wasn’t a book idea. I created this out of the work I was doing and something that helped me, and I saw an opportunity to share it with other people. And I feel like you having worked with chronic diseases and figuring, “Oh, we need to find a way for people to exercise. Oh, nobody wants to. We can’t get them to exercise.” And like the statistic you gave of it’s less than 5% of Americans or roughly 5% that are cardiovascularly healthy at the level they’re supposed to be, which means 95% of us are not. So, yeah, man. Thank you for the work that you’re doing. And what’s the best place if anybody wants to get in touch with you or discover CAROL Bike, what’s the best way to find you?

Ulrich Dempfle: Sure. So, we’re on all socials with @thecarolbike, and you can find us at our web store, CAROLbike.com. One thing I should say, we don’t operate stores but we have a very generous and I think market-leading risk-free trial. So, if you want to get a bike, you get free delivery and you have a 100-day risk-free trial. So, that’s enough to see whether you like it, whether you can do it, whether you see the benefits. And if it is not for you for any reason, we just pick it up again and you get a full refund. So, that’s an easy way to try it.

Hal Elrod: That’s what convinced me to give it a shot. I’m like, “But I’m keeping it now.” I love it. So, awesome, Ulrich. Hey, it’s a pleasure to finally talk to you face-to-face and thanks so much, brother. And goal achievers, I love you so much. And if your goal, like me, for this year is to get fit, to improve your cardiovascular ability, your health, your fitness, check out the CAROL Bike, and hopefully it will bless your life the way it has mine. Love you all so much. Talk to you next week.

Ulrich Dempfle: Thank you.