447: Quit a Job You Hate for the Work You Love with Tim Rhode and Pat Hiban

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quit a job you hate

Do you love what you do for a living? Or do you find yourself feeling unfulfilled and wishing you were doing something else? A global poll conducted by Gallup sheds a disturbing light on this topic:

“With only 21% of employees engaged at work and 33% of employees thriving in their overall wellbeing, most would say that they don’t find their work meaningful, don’t think their lives are going well or don’t feel hopeful about their future.

According to that same report, stress among workers is also at an all-time high. Surprisingly, people are feeling even more stressed than they did in 2020! So, why do so many people stick with jobs that they hate? And what can someone do if they want to get paid to do something that they love?

To help answer these questions, I’m talking with my good friends Tim Rhode and Pat Hiban. Their new book is called The Quitters Manifesto: Quit a Job You Hate for the Work You Love. In it, they explore why so many people feel trapped in their jobs but don’t know how to escape. The book will help you craft a game plan to survive uncertainty, create new opportunities, and make meaningful change. (If you’d like to get a copy, click here and use the code “ELROD” at checkout for 10% off.)


  • Why Tim and Pat quit jobs that didn’t serve them—and what happened next.
  • How to determine when it’s time to quit your job, and how to manage any fear and uncertainty you feel.
  • Why your worst-case scenario is never a downgrade from where you are right now.
  • How to build a “quit team” to help you navigate career transitions gracefully.
  • Ways you can internalize your plan to quit into your daily practice—including your Miracle Morning.


  • We think that a really important piece is to have a good quit team early on to help you get the right thing for you.” – Tim Rhode
  • The first thing we ask you to do is get real, which means get real with your finances.” – Pat Hiban


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Copyright © 2022 Miracle Morning, LP and International Literary Properties LLC

Hal Elrod: Welcome to the Achieve Your Goals Podcast. This is your host, Hal Elrod, and thank you as always for being here. I really appreciate you listening. And today is a conversation with two friends of mine who happened to have written a brand new book that I’m very excited about. I haven’t read it cover-to-cover yet. I’ve skimmed it cover-to-cover and gotten the general sense. And I feel like it’s really a book that many of us need right now. And it’s called The Quitters Manifesto: How to Quit a Job You Hate for the Work You Love. And if that resonates with you at all, if your current job either doesn’t fulfill you or doesn’t compensate you to the level that you want to be fulfilled and/or compensated, whatever the reason, so either way, if there’s a reason where you’ve considered quitting, where we talked today about the soul-sucking meter and determining on a scale of 1 to 10 how much of your soul is this job sucking?


So, if that resonates in terms of like, “Yeah, the work I’m doing now, it’s not what I meant to do. I think I’m meant to do more,” or if it’s, “You know what, the job I’m doing now, it barely is paying the bills. I want to earn more,” whatever the reason is for you, today’s episode, I think, is going to be really helpful. And Pat Hiban and Tim Rhode, they are living proof that you can quit a job you hate for the work that you love. And we’re going to hear their story today. But more importantly, we’re going to hear some of their tactics and strategies that they share in their book, The Quitters Manifesto. And stay tuned to the end because there’s a special discount if you decide you want to get a copy of the book and it doesn’t help me at all. I don’t make any money off that, but I think it might help you.


So, before we dive into today’s episode on how to quit a job you hate for the work you love, I want to take just a minute or two to thank and acknowledge our sponsors and tell you about a couple of products that have really been making an impact for me personally. I shouldn’t say me personally but my wife, first and foremost. So, the first company, our first sponsor I should say is Organifi. And I’ve mentioned this like off the cuff once or twice, but my wife brought it up to me again last night. She said, “Look how thick my hair is,” and I said, “I have not – I don’t know if it’s just me, but I don’t know what to compare it to. I don’t know how thick it was or not thick it was like a week or two ago.” But she’s been taking Organifi Glow because your best complexion starts on the inside and it’s a vegan superfood blend that hydrates the skin. It moisturizes. It supports your body’s natural collagen production and elasticity. And according to my wife, it has made her nails significantly stronger. She said they used to always break and be like brittle.


She said her nails are so much stronger, her hair is thicker, and her skin is clearer than it has ever been or it’s been in a long time. So, if those are benefits that are appealing to you, head over to Organifi.com/Hal. Find Glow on their website as well as any other products like their protein powder or the other products that I use. And if you want to get something, use the code “HAL” at checkout and you’ll get an additional 20% off your entire order. Again, that’s Organifi.com/Hal and use the code “HAL” at checkout for 20% off your entire order. And if you’re like my wife and you want thicker hair, stronger nails, and clearer skin, check out that product, Glow.


And then last but not least, are our newest sponsor, CURED Nutrition. I take two of their products and I know that these are the only ones I mentioned because, well, no, there’s three products that I take. I take their one for gut health as well. I think it’s called Aura, but I don’t really notice if there’s any benefit. So, that’s why I’m not like super high on that. Maybe it’s working, maybe it’s not. I don’t really know. But the two that I notice the impact of are what I take in the morning, which is Rise. It’s a morning nootropic and what I take before bed, especially this one, Nightcaps. Nightcaps contain 30 milligrams of CBD oil and 5 milligrams of CBN oil, both of which work to relax you and help you stay asleep so you can wake up rested and rejuvenated, which I’ve been doing. So, head over to CUREDNutrition.com/Hal and then use the code “HAL” at checkout again for 20% off your entire order. And if you want to try the products that I love, it’s Rise for the morning and then Nightcaps for 30 minutes before bed. And both of those help me start the day in a peak state and go to bed and get quality sleep.


So, without further ado, let’s talk about how to quit the job you hate for a work you love with my good friends, Tim Rhode and Pat Hiban, author of the new book, The Quitters Manifesto.




Hal Elrod: Tim and Pat, I always regret not recording the banter before an interview when it’s as much fun as we just had, like all the laughs, the inappropriate stuff. And then you’re like, “Okay, okay, we better hit record before we miss any of this gold.” So, welcome, you guys. Great to have you here, man.


Pat Hiban: Hal, thanks so much.


Tim Rhode: Hey, thanks for having us, Hal.


Hal Elrod: Yes, my long-time friends. We’ve known each other since, I mean, early GoBundance. What are we? Six, seven, eight years, something like that?


Tim Rhode: Oh, goodness. It’s about eight years. You first spoke at a 1Life conference.


Hal Elrod: Oh, yeah. You’re right. Yeah, it was before GoBundance. And that got me the invite to GoBundance, 1Life Fully Lived.


Tim Rhode: Yeah, and what’s funny is my wife, Tina, saw you on a Mindcast podcast. Yeah.


Hal Elrod: And then she came to you and said you got to have this guy speak at 1Life or what?


Tim Rhode: Exactly.


Hal Elrod: Really?


Tim Rhode: And then I reached out to you and so our whole world and think of all the connections.


Hal Elrod: Oh, yeah.


Tim Rhode: Berghoff and all of us together. It’s just been amazing.


Hal Elrod: So, like everything else in your life, Tina deserves most of the credit.


Tim Rhode: Absolutely. 100%, truth be told.


Hal Elrod: For me, it’s Ursula, right? We all can attest to that. So, you guys, here’s where I want to start. I actually want to start with kind of a personal story from each of you in that the new book that’s out. I love the concept. It’s quitting your job to find freedom in your work, freedom to do what you want to do, enjoy what you do, earn more money, all of those things. So, what I want to start with is, is there a time where either of you have quit a job that you did not like? You might have hated it but thought you needed it, right? So, it took courage to make that leap. And then what happened afterward? I’d love to hear that kind of story.


Pat Hiban: Yeah. I’ve got a great story that dates back to when I was about 20 years old. I lived at the beach in Ocean City, Maryland, and I had a job cutting meats, slicing meats at a deli. And I think I was making like $4 or something an hour and I’d work 40 hours a week and make like $150, maybe 120 after tax. And a friend of mine was doing these timeshare sales, not even like the sales, but like go accosting someone on the boardwalk and saying, “Hey, would you like a free dinner, a free steak dinner? All you got to do is show up at these timeshare condos and take a tour and you get a free dinner.” And everybody that I got to show up or everyone that my friend got to show up at this tour, he got $20 for. So, I was like, I’ll give that a try. And my first day I went out, the boss said, “You only got to remember three things.” He’s like, “Don’t wear your baseball cap.” At that time, I was like Beastie Boys style with it on backwards. “Don’t wear your sunglasses and look them in their left eye and keep talking until you’re done.” And I said, “Okay, cool. I could do that.”


So, I went and did it. And the next day I showed up at the office where they post all the numbers of all the people that got people to go on the tours. And the number one guy was this guy named Danny. And he was like, I think he was like, whatever. His number was 20 and my number was 101. I’ll never forget that. And we’re looking at the board and it says, “Top sales: five,” which means five people went, “101.” And then it says like second place or whatever it says, “Two, number 20.” And then everybody underneath him got like one sale or zero sales because it was kind of hard. And I’m standing behind him and he just turns and looks at his buddies and he goes, “Who the hell is number 101?” And I remember thinking to myself, “Holy, Dirk, that’s me.” Like, I won the day. On my first day, I got five people to go and I said, “Wow, and you got $20 for each person and then you got a $50 bonus if you got the most in a day. So, I got $150 my first day and I was only making like $150 a week at the cutting the meat job.


And so, basically, I didn’t even quit that job. I just stopped going. I just never went back. I just was like, “This is for me.” And since that day, I have never worked a non-sales, non-commissioned, non-business ever, and it was life changing. For me now, it was all about the money and it was also all about realizing that I was actually good at something because I think up until 20 years old, I was a pretty insecure kid. I wasn’t like killing it in anything, whether it be sports, school, friends, girls. Like, I wasn’t at the top of my game on anything. And for me to be at the top of my game suddenly at something and I didn’t understand why was very influential on me.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. Pat, I have never heard that story and I feel like you and I have almost an identical story. When I was 20, I gave up, actually, and it wasn’t a job I didn’t like. I was a deejay on the radio, which I loved, 97.1 FM, but I went and sold Cutco and I was doing both jobs. And my first few days with Cutco, I made like a couple of thousand dollars, which I was not making in a month at the radio. And so, yes, I liked that job but I was like, “Man, this is a real opportunity.” And it was the same thing, age 20, and it was the same thing. My whole life I had been mediocre at everything. I wasn’t good at sports. I didn’t get good grades. I wasn’t popular. And then it’s like I realized, wow, this is where you can control your destiny. Like, you’re not beholden to someone telling you, “This is what you’re worth.” I will pay you this much per hour and no more. You have no ability to generate more than that. Really interesting. Cool story. Tim, what about you, man? Has there been a job that you hated that you quit even though you were scared to do so?


Tim Rhode: Yeah. I’ll get into that quickly. But what’s interesting about when you guys say this, there’s this new trend called quiet quitting. Don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but it’s all over TikTok right now. It’s the new rage and it’s instead of doing extra or what our book’s all about, The Quitters Manifesto: Quit the Job You Hate for the Work You Love, they’re simply just not really working. So, I think that’s such an interesting thing going on today that our book really addresses, I think. And that instead of quitting and just standing there and chilling out, why not find the work you like? And that’s what our book’s all about. So, for me and I’ll go quickly in this because there’s a lot to get to in the book that we’d love to. Mine was selling real estate. I was 35 years old. What was so fun from 26 to 35 and I was really good at it, it had oxidized and it rusted out on me. So, I really loved it when I did it. And then right near the end of it, it’s just no fun anymore. And I had all these telltale signs that were telling me, “Tim, you’re ready for your next incarnation.”


So, fast forward about five years of living in that oxidative state, if you will, I was in Belize and I looked up and I had become a millionaire and it was such a big deal to me because I had barely graduated high school, never went to college. And it was the first time I ever looked up and said, “Dude, I am so proud of you. Look what you’ve accomplished from nothing to something. What do you want to do?” And I said, “I never want to list another _____, _____ house again.” And it was just this shocking revelation that had been coming to this point. But it was like, “Wow. I like it. Let’s go. What are you going to do?” It was like how about if you do this? How about if you’re just an ambassador from you leave this trip, you never have to sell another house, and you’re going to only work for you.” And I was like, “I like this. Tell me more.” So, a huge piece of our book is your identity. You know, Pat was a meat cutter, you were a deejay, and I was a real estate agent. And you got to go from here to there. What are you going to do? So, I wrote on a plane on the way home was a Tony Robbins’ plan. What’s your outcome? What’s your purpose? What’s your action plan? And that’s how I literally changed my identity on that trip and never sold another home.


Hal Elrod: Incredible. I love you shared that Tony Robbins’ process. Tell me that again. Repeat that.


Tim Rhode: It was he called it OPA. What’s your outcome? What do you want to happen? What’s your purpose? And Tony talks about a big why. And I had a long list for the purpose. I’m sick of selling houses. I want to actually get true wealth and I wrote this long why. And then what your action plan. And for me as an investor, it was where are you going to find the deals? Where are you going to find the money? Who’s going to help you? Who do you know that’s already doing this? And I just wrote all these tangible steps of what’s next.


Hal Elrod: I love that. You know, it just showed there’s no new information. Meaning, like what’s always worked is what works, right? Like, I call that that’s the what, the why, and the which. What are you committed to? What’s your outcome? Why is it important to you, your purpose? And which specific actions are you committed to taking and when are you going to take them? If you can clarify those three things and keep them top of mind every single day, there’s nothing that you can’t do, nothing that you can’t change. And you guys are living proof of that.


Tim Rhode: Yeah. True that.


Hal Elrod: Awesome. One of the things, I want to talk about risk right now because I think if somebody’s listening and if they hate their job, most of us feel like, “But that’s my security. That’s how I pay the bills.” And you guys talk in the book about there’s a theme. You talk about a trapeze artist and the risk that they take every time they step on that wire. Can you explain a little bit about that concept and what a trapeze artist has to do with quitting your job?


Pat Hiban: Okay. Yeah, I’ll take it. So, first chapter in the book we talk about, Hal, is coming to the realization that quitting is scary. A lot of people don’t realize that the reason they haven’t quit yet is because they’re scared. And if you took a thousand people to the edge of a cliff, you might find one or two that we call entrepreneurs that will jump off and create a parachute on the way down, like the old adage says, you know? But the rest of them are going to run. The rest of them are going to be like, “Nah, I’m out,” because it’s scary. So, once you come to the realization that it’s scary, we wanted to write a book that was a tactical book, not like, “Oh, don’t be scared.” Like, “Ah, you can do it. Don’t worry about it.” We didn’t want to be strategic. We didn’t want to be inspirational. We wanted to be very specific and tactical because we saw a need in the market for it. So, what we did is we teach people, first of all, how to build a safety net like a trapeze artist when they’re out there at the circus. If they fall, they land on a safety net. So, we teach you, “Okay. Here’s how you build a safety net. Here’s the three things you got to do.”


Then we teach people, “Okay. Here’s the first trapeze bar. You hold on to that. Then you let go. You swing the second one, then you swing the third one.” And each chapter in the book is a different trapeze bar. And so, basically, if you read the book and you follow the instructions in the book, you’re going to have a safety net at the bottom, you’re going to have a trapeze bar to go all the way across the gorge or whatever it is you’re trapezing across to the other end and be able to quit your job and be happy.


Hal Elrod: Beautiful. Can you give us some of that? How do you build a safety net? You mentioned there are some steps. What are some of those steps?


Pat Hiban: Go ahead, Tim.


Tim Rhode: Well, I think that that first part is to recognize how bad is it. And with this, it’s a tool we call the soul-sucking audit. How bad is it, really? And it’s a metric to look at number 1 to 10 to see how bad is it. If it’s a 7, 8, 9, or 10, especially 8, 9, 10, you’re in the sweet spot. You don’t need to really make a move.


Hal Elrod: Now, real quick, when you say how bad is it, do you mean your current work, your current job?


Tim Rhode: Yes. It’s how bad is what I’m going to every day and doing. So, yeah, thanks for that clarification, Hal. So, if you look at five measures on the soul-sucking audit, number one is your compensation. Am I being compensated fairly for how talented I am? Number two is the organization. Am I respected by the outfit that I’m a part of? Number three, how good of a fit am I on the team and within that organization and towards what I love to do? Number four is your ability to grow. Am I growing within this organization? Am I growing as a human? And number five is the most important piece. How do I feel every day when I show up to work? And I got a question for you. How did you feel as a disc jockey, Hal?


Hal Elrod: So, that’s the thing is I loved being a radio deejay. Well, except I was deejaying midnight to 6 a.m. because I was the new guy, right? When you’re the new guy, they’re like, “Alright. You’re the midnight to 6 a.m. shift on the weekends, Friday and Saturday night to Saturday and Sunday morning.” For me, I think a comparison that resonates with me is really when I left Cutco. So, I had been a Cutco sales rep for six years and it had given me a really secure income. You know, about $50,000 a year is what I was averaging in my early twenties. And then my last year with Cutco, I earned a little over $100,000 and kind of figured out how I could maintain that. But my soul, my heart, like my intuition, it was like I wanted to be a professional speaker, a motivational speaker, you could say, or really a keynote speaker. And I really wanted to become an author. I wanted to write a book and share my story with my car accident.


And I loved speaking. You know, I used to speak at Cutco events all the time. I would do division meetings, weekly office meetings, annual sales conferences for the national events, those sorts of things, and that was really what my passion was. But talk about scary. There is no degree to be a professional keynote speaker. There is no direct path, right? It’s not like I’m going to go to school and get my degree, my Ph.D., and then become a doctor. It’s like, “Oh, you want to be a keynote speaker? That’s the Wild West, dude. Good luck.” And so, in terms of building my safety net, what I did is I saved $20,000 my last year selling Cutco. I went out there, I worked my butt off, earned $100,000, saved $20,000 of it to give myself about a six-month cushion to start figuring out how to make money. And again, it was still terrifying. I thought six months isn’t that long. What if I get at the end of six months and I’m not making any money and I’m spending money and so on and so forth.


But I think that what you’re talking about, that soul-sucking meter is so important because we get one life. We get one life. And spending our time doing work that doesn’t fulfill us, it’s a waste of our life and you just don’t know unless you take that risk. I know that you guys say in the book, right, there is no zero risk. There’s no zero-risk plan in anything. You know, there’s no zero-risk plan in a marriage or having kids or any aspect of life. There’s always an element of risk. But what’s on the other side? And I think the three of us can speak from experience taking that risk, quitting that secure income for a life of freedom, not only financial freedom, but time freedom, doing things that you love to do. So, yeah, so that for me was the big transition was, alright, I’ve had this six-year career and it’s work that I didn’t hate Cutco. I actually really enjoyed it but it wasn’t what I felt I was meant to do and it didn’t give me the freedom I wanted.


I had to go do an appointment to… Right? It was trading time for money and I wanted leverage. I wanted to write a book that I could put on Amazon and that, yes, I could market it here and there, but that it would pay me. Even while I was sleeping, people would buy that book. I wanted to be a $10,000 keynote speaker where the leverage I could make a huge impact, do something I love to do, and get paid significantly more for an hour of my time than anything else that I was aware of. So, anyway, it’s a long answer to your question, man, but that was it.


Tim Rhode: And I’m curious, Hal, did you actually write a plan or did you have this in your head? Here you are, you’re at Cutco. You saved the $20,000 but did you actually map out, “I’m going to write a book. I’m going to be a keynote speaker. I’m going to make the…” How much did you go into it?


Hal Elrod: Yeah. I don’t remember exactly. Knowing me, I’ve never been a big planner. You know, I’d maybe plan a year or so. I mean, I’ve always been kind of a I’m going to schedule time to figure it out. That’s usually how I plan. My plan is I don’t know exactly how I’m going to get to my destination but I’m committed to getting there and therefore, I’m going to focus on it from 8 a.m. to 10 a.m. Monday through Friday. And I’m going to figure it out. And there were all sorts of iterations. I mean you mentioned Jon Berghoff earlier. You know, Jon and I started a business with our friend, Jon Vroman, called, what was it? Your Best Life Coaching. And it was okay and then it flopped. So, then we recreated Global Empowerment Coaching and we launched that. We thought that was it. That thing totally failed. I wrote my first book, Taking Life Head On. My publisher stole all my money and then I made none/very little after that. So, anyone who’s listening that’s like, “Oh, man, I was ready to jump, but screw that. That sounds too scary.”


Pat Hiban: You know what, bro. I’m the same way. When I quit real estate, I probably did three things that completely like failed or non-existence. Like, I have a very expensive logo in a frame and that’s all I got to show for it, and lost thousands of dollars and time doing it. But you just don’t know until you try it, and that’s the thing. And I think more than anything, you just have to have faith in yourself. And one of the things we write about in the book, Hal, that people don’t realize is when we ask people, “Why is it so scary or what is the worst case scenario that can happen?” they come up with these disaster-ly scenarios. They’re like, “I’m going to be in a car. I’m going to be on Skid Row. I’m going to live in Seattle in a tent. You know what I mean? Like, my kids are going to starve.” But in reality, they’re a doctor, and they’re quitting their doctor job or an accountant and quitting their accountant job. That’s not what’s going to happen if they fail.


You know what’s going to happen if they fail? They’re going to call their boss and be like, “Hey, I failed. You think I can come back?” And they’re like, “Oh, yeah, we loved having you here.” Or if you have a degree in something, you’re going to be able to use it again to get another job in that. Your worst case scenario is you’re going to go back to where you were not go way, way down.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. And they’re going to welcome you with open arms. They go, “Oh, we’re so glad you’re back,” right? And I thought about that, too. I go, “I can always go back to Cutco. I can always go back to that if I wanted to.” But I think…


Tim Rhode: But you didn’t, right?


Hal Elrod: No, definitely not. Now, Pat, you mentioned something, faith in yourself. And you know, there’s a concept I teach, The Miracle Equation, which is unwavering faith and extraordinary effort, right, where you commit to something and give it your all. Do you guys feel that… How do I put this? I feel like you can’t fail. Like, when you commit to something, you figure it out. It usually takes longer than you thought it would. There’s usually…


Pat Hiban: Always.


Hal Elrod: Always. Not usually, right? There are almost always unexpected challenges that scare you and that maybe tempt you to give up. But for those that stay committed, I feel like there’s always a way, like you always everybody figures it out unless they give up. What are your thoughts on that?


Pat Hiban: Napoleon Hill said it but I read an article where they actually asked Napoleon Hill of Think and Grow Rich. They asked him, “If you had to boil down everything you know about Think and Grow Rich, what is the one thing that pops into your mind?” Do you know what he said? There’s two things. He said, “Number one, the people that fail, fail to…” They asked if people fail at getting rich, what is the one thing?” And he says, “They fail to develop a proper mastermind, have mentors, have people around them that are doing it. And the second thing is, they give up too early.” And that second one goes right to what you say. They just give up too early.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. I really believe the only way to fail at something is to quit, is to give up too early.


Tim Rhode: I have a good story, a guy that I was the golf crew where I live and he was a great, I could just tell he was really humorous and outgoing and I told him, “You would be really good as a realtor.” And so, he quit and got his license and started selling real estate near me right when the downturn started and he failed. He lost his house and it was like, “Oh, man, and I talked him into this.” And then it took about a year, maybe two years later, he moved to Park City, Utah. I went and saw him with his family, two young kids, by the way, at the time. And he found his way and is now one of the top salespeople in Utah. And I think that’s a great story to show what can be. It doesn’t happen overnight and sometimes it doesn’t go the way you think it’s supposed to go but I think we end up where we’re supposed to end up. Yeah.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. I almost feel like there’s an unseen force in the universe for those that commit to something. You know, you can call it God. You can call it luck. You know, a little bit of both. But that seems to be it like when you maintain unwavering faith in yourself and your ability to figure it out and you put forth that extraordinary effort, you just keep moving forward. And you’re going to be hit with obstacles along the way but it seems like your success becomes inevitable. You’re eventually going to get there. And when you do, the timing is perfect. You look back and you’re like, “Oh, why did I stress out so much? I had to go through all of those challenges to get here, and the timing was perfect. Now, I’m exactly where,” as you said, Tim, “I’m supposed to be in the exact timing that I’m supposed to be there. There’s a bunch of tools, a number of tools in the book to help someone identify moves they may need to make in life when they’re quitting a job. One of the tools is the IO quotient. What is that? What’s the IO quotient and how does this framework help someone quit?


Tim Rhode: Go ahead, Pat.


Pat Hiban: We stole that from Naval. You’re probably a fan of Naval Ravikant.


Hal Elrod: Oh, yeah. He’s one of my favorites.


Pat Hiban: Yeah. So, he tweeted one day. He said, “Question, how much of your day is spent in interest versus obligation?” And both Tim and I thought that was incredibly deep like mind-blowing deep, interests versus obligation. I mean, I’ve even thought about creating like a big chart that you could highlight, like every hour of your day where like was this interest or was this obligation? And I think that most people are probably 80/20 of that obligation. And so, our goal would be to flip that. So, you would be all interested. Now you can earn money and interest, but if like you said, Hal, earlier, you only live once and life is short. So, why not have a life full of interest, if not all interest?


Hal Elrod: And you say an interest, meaning doing something you’re interested in, something that you actually enjoy doing, right?


Pat Hiban: Something you just move towards naturally.


Hal Elrod: And that’s freedom. To me, that is freedom where you get to wake up and spend your days doing that. I try to teach my kids that all the time when I was 15 and I started my deejay business and I loved deejaying and I was like, “Whoa, and you can get paid for this?” And so, that’s it. It’s like figure, I mean, I don’t know who said this first but it’s figure out what you love to do and then find a way to get paid for it. And now my daughter is pursuing acting. It’s what she loves to do. And she’s only 13 but I have no doubt she’ll keep taking…


Pat Hiban: Start with The Wizard of Oz.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. Figure out a way to get paid for it, sweetie. So, we talked about the soul-sucking meter, right? And really identifying, being really brutally honest with yourself in terms of all those obligations, the work that you’re doing, how is that impacting your mental and emotional well-being? How is that sucking your soul? One of the concepts you talk about in the book is the quit team. Can you expand on that?


Tim Rhode: Sure. I’ll be happy to take this one. It’s having a team of four different people in your world that can help you figure out what’s best for you moving forward. Number one on your quit team is the stakeholders, your spouse, those closest to you, those most affected by your decision. And you want to start that early on when you start oxidizing in this current incarnation. You should be talking to them regularly so you don’t just say, “Hey, guess what, I quit.” You want to be proactive, not reactive with all of this. Number two on your quit team is your partners. Those are people that the better you do, the better they’ll do. As an example, on real estate to be a mortgage person or a title company person that know you well and know that can help you find your best path. Number three would be mentors and how we think you as a mentor, people that you can ask, “Hey, where do you see me?” that they might be able to work with you on whatever it is you’re thinking next for you.


And number four, if you can afford them, is a coach, to have a coach in your corner that can help you through this process. So, we think that’s a really important piece is to have a good quit team early on to help you get the right thing for you.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. You can bounce ideas off of them, get emotional support. Where does mastermind fit into that quick team? Would it be one of those four categories or would it be a fifth category?


Tim Rhode: I would say it’s your mentors. That’s your peer group. In GoBundance, it’d be your GoPod and other people that you spend time. So, I’d say it’s just us. That’s a larger group of mentors.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. Well, actually, that’s how I interpreted it because my GoPod I’m a member of GoBundance, which you guys are the co-founders of, and my GoPod, we meet twice a month and they’ve been invaluable in bringing idea. You know, I bring something up and it’s like I feel stuck. My wife, she has no experience in an area and I bring it on my GoPod call, which we do again it’s every other week and it’s like I have three guys I think is on there and it’s like, “Oh, they all have so much wisdom.” They’ve been there, they’ve done that, you know. Yeah. So, really, really invaluable. So, having a quit team. Where do finances come into play in terms of transitioning? I mentioned that for me to help kind of give me a little bit of security. I saved that $20,000 and this was back in, what, 2005. So, without inflation, that was that 20,000 was worth a lot more than it is. It’s probably 40,000 today. But that would give me about six months of minimum expenses at that time. So, where would you guys say that finances come into play in terms of somebody quitting their job and transitioning to doing work they love?


Pat Hiban: So, we actually get real specific here because this is the safety net that we’re talking about building before you start getting on the trapeze bars. And so, the first thing we ask you to do is get real, which means like get real with your finances. Write down every little thing. Like, how many of these streaming services are you paying for? How many apps on your iPhone are getting recurring? You know, everything down to the penny that’s costing you money and make it so that it’s a bare minimum for you. How much do you really have in savings? What are your investments really worth? What kind of access do you have for credit, that sort of thing? And then once you do that, the second thing we ask you to do is actually go out and get credit. We encourage you to take out a HELOC from your house. And not only that, we asked you to take it a step further. Take a look a HELOC, a home equity line of credit, from your house but then once you get it, take it, write up a check for the entire amount, and put it in a separate bank that’s only a savings account that you can’t ATM from, that you can’t write a check from and put it away.


Because what happens, inevitably when markets start to go down and the value of your house drops, the banks will take back some of that credit line and they did this last time. So, get it out and then put an automatic withdrawal every month, every week, whatever, going to that same savings account. And again, you can’t get it. Once it goes in there, it’s stuck. And we give you all these ideas. Private lending, go to people, go to family, go to friends. Just try to build up as much as you can. Exhaust everything. And then you’ll have that safety net. And then you got to figure out how many months of failure or how many months of no income do you need in that safety net.


Hal Elrod: Awesome. Yeah, it’s interesting. I just was the lender on two of those private loans for two friends of mine that were making their transition. One of them was he wanted to be going to nursing school. It was his dream to transition from the work he’d been doing. And he’s a little younger. He’s around early thirties. But anyway, I loaned him the money for a nursing school and he’s paid me every, you know, he sends me money every month ever since then. And here’s what’s cool. He thanked me profusely every time I see him saying, “Hal, if you wouldn’t have loaned me that money for nursing school, I wouldn’t have been able to do it.” And he said, “This is what I’ve wanted to do for years. I love my work.” He lights up because that was what he always wanted to do. But he was afraid to make that initial investment upfront to go to nursing school and so on and so forth. So, yeah, really, really cool. And I love that you guys, I think, that you’re delivering on that promise of the book being very tactical like, “Here, open a HELOC. Do it like this. Structure it this way. Set up your automatic payments, so on and so forth.” That’s one thing that I haven’t thought about is that in a down economy, in a recession, they’ll come back after your line of credit and take some of it back if the house value drops.


Tim Rhode: And we’ve touched on how things don’t go as planned. It always takes longer than you think. So, why not have that extra money and it just makes it easier for you and you don’t have that worry. So, I think that’s really important.


Hal Elrod: Yeah, absolutely. There was a part in the book about I call it The More Pie part that I thought was funny. You wrote in the book about the joke that making partner at your law firm is like winning a pie-eating contest where first prize is more pie, right? But in this case, more work. So, what do you guys think a tangible next step is for someone to make after they realize they’re winning a never eating pie-eating contest? Meaning the more they climb the corporate ladder, they’re just given more work, which then sucks their soul even more rapidly, if you will.


Tim Rhode: I’ll take that. You know, it’s funny, the book mentions attorneys and that is the goal is to become partners. As soon as you pass the bar, you got to become a partner. And the thing you get for being a partner is more pie. We also see that within GoBundance with doctors. So many of them are in their forties and fifties and they just have the quote is more pie just handed. They’re just busier and busier and they’re on that treadmill. And that’s a great example, are an attorney. It’s so hard to just change your identity and we talked about this earlier in this podcast is that is such a huge piece in this that how hard it is to go from attorney or go from a doctor. And we just had a good friend, Dr. Tom Burns, in GoBundance that loved being a doctor. He loved helping people, but he found he was ready for his next incarnation and had to cut the corner, meaning no more pie, and then find what’s next for him.


Hal Elrod: It’s so funny. I was just going to tell Tom Burns’s story. He’s in my GoPod. So, we watched that from, “I’m a doctor. I make great money. I love what I do but I feel like I want to impact people. I want to write a book. I want to start a mastermind.” He had all these aspirations. And literally, on our call last week, I won’t throw out the numbers but he shared how many mastermind members he now has at what price point. And it’s so funny, before he shared the numbers, he goes, “Yeah, man, I feel like I really am ready to start making money with these new ventures and he throws a number. I go, “Tom, did I do the math wrong? You’re currently making X amount of hundreds of thousands of dollars in your mastermind.” He goes, “Yeah, I guess you’re right.” I go, “I think you got it, buddy. I think you won.” Yeah, but I literally got to watch him go through that process of this secure job that he had done for so many years that his identity was wrapped around and now he’s playing tennis more. He’s replaced his income. He took that leap and now he’s so fulfilled.


Tim Rhode: I over owe in this next incarnation. And he loved being that doctor, as you know, Hal.


Hal Elrod: Totally.


Tim Rhode: He’s really, really, really good at it but it had oxidants. And it’s funny, as Pat and I were there when it kind of came to him that he’s ready for this next incarnation. So, we were, yeah.


Hal Elrod: Yeah. So, let’s do this. Let’s talk about kind of first steps for somebody listening to this. So, if somebody is listening to this, obviously, I recommend getting the book. It’s The Quitters Manifesto. And you guys sent me a note saying that today our listeners can get 10% off their copy with the code “ELROD.” So, if you want to get the book, head over to BiggerPockets.com/QuittersManifesto and then enter the code “ELROD” at checkout for 10% off. If you want to buy it from Amazon, of course, it’s on Amazon too, right, if they want to get it there?


Tim Rhode: Audible.


Hal Elrod: Audible, Amazon, all that good stuff. So, obviously that I think is an important step to really get all of the tactics broken down in writing so they can review it, revisit it, and implement it. But in general, whether it’s a mindset piece or it’s a tactical piece, if somebody is listening and they’re like, “My job is sucking my soul,” or maybe it’s just my job doesn’t pay me well enough, right? It could be completely one of those two. I mean, that’s why I left the radio DJ job. It’s like, “I’m not making any money at this.” But whatever their reason for wanting to implement what you’re talking about here, what would be their first step or their next step in addition to getting the book?


Pat Hiban: Well, I think the first step, obviously, is to read the book and then just start implementing it. We even have a checklist in the back where they could rip it out and put it on a corkboard and say, “Step one or trapeze ring one has been let go of and now I’m on trapeze ring 2.” First and foremost, like I said before, you’ve really got to admit that it is scary and that you’re scared and here’s a way to make you less scared. And if you’re doing this soul-sucking meter and which you asked the question, what would you do first? Probably the soul-sucking meter. Figure out your soul-sucking meter. If you’re six or less on the soul-sucking meter, it’s time to go. It’s no way to live your life six or less. It’s just terrible. It’s time to go. Everything’s going to be fine. You got to have faith in yourself and here’s a step-by-step process to do it.


Tim Rhode: And I’d like to add to that. Everybody on this podcast is already doing the SAVERS every day or in their own form, if you will. While you’re doing your SAVERS, hopefully, you can get out in nature and get quiet and ask, and just have a real heart-to-heart with yourself. Is this working for me? And if not, what can I do? And then go to the people who it would be your quit team, if you will, and ask them, “Do you think I’m happy in my current job? What do you think I could do that would better fulfill me?” You know, I think that’s a huge piece to this. So, that’s why.


Hal Elrod: I love that. And I once heard it, I don’t know who said it, but they said something along the lines of like, “If I stay in a job that I hate, that sucks my soul, what kind of example am I setting for my kids especially and just people around me?” You know, oh, yeah, just settle for less than you really want, less than you’re capable of so you can get your paycheck and go home. And I think that in terms of the next step for anybody, I love Tim. I love that, too, in terms of get out. Get the goods in the woods. That’s your affirmation. But, yeah, for those that don’t know, Tim is an outdoor enthusiast and I think he actually sleeps outside. I can’t confirm that. But I think that it starts with a little bit of just let yourself imagine a better future, right? Let yourself dream, let yourself visualize. Allow yourself to go, “If I were to make a change, what would I do? If I could not fail, what would I do? If I were to create the life “of my dreams,” what would I do? What would that look like?”


And that’s the thing is, it’s hard to go from 0 to 60 instantaneously. Meaning if your mindset before you listen to this podcast was like you weren’t even thinking about quitting your job or maybe you’ve thought about it, but actually doing it wasn’t really something you were entertaining. Then you’ve got to get, I don’t know about you, but I like I have to acclimate to a new idea. Whether it’s making a new investment or making a major change, I’ve got to consider it. I’ve got to sleep on it. And the more time you mentioned, Tim, the SAVERS, right, integrating into the SAVERS, doing some journaling, doing some visualization, meditating, as you said, Tim, go outside, meditate, have that heart-to-heart. Start there. Start with imagining what would that look like. What’s the ideal outcome if you could wave a magic wand and transform your life? And then get the book and then follow the steps, right? And then before you know it, you’re going to have a different life. You’re going to quit the job. You’re going to move forward and step into the you that you deserve for yourself.


And so, I am so grateful that you guys wrote this book honestly. I told you that before we started recording. I said, I love the concept and I feel like it’s needed now maybe more than ever as people realize that life’s short, man, I got to live a life that I love. So, thank you, Pat. Thank you, Tim. Man, I appreciate you guys.


Tim Rhode: Been a pleasure, Hal.


Pat Hiban: It’s always great catching up with you, brother.


Hal Elrod: You, too. So, everybody, again, goal achievers, the book is The Quitters Manifesto, and the tagline is what’s the tagline, guys? I don’t have it in front of me.


Pat Hiban: Quit a job you hate for the work you love.


Hal Elrod: That’s right. Quit a job you hate for the work you love. You can get it on Amazon or if you want 10% off, go to BiggerPockets.com/QuittersManifesto and enter the code “ELROD” at checkout for 10% off your book. And I’m excited to hear your stories about how you quit a job you hate and find work that you love like I’ve done, like Tim’s done, and like Pat has done and so many others. Goal achievers, members of the Miracle Morning community, I love you so much and I appreciate you and I will talk to you all next week. Take care.

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