[INTRODUCTION]

Hal Elrod: Hello, friends. If you’ve ever felt exhausted by conflict or you have people in your life who have hurt you with their words or their actions, maybe people that you love, maybe it’s aunts, uncles, parents, friends, sisters, brothers, or you’re wondering if there’s a better way to disagree without losing yourself or the people you care about, this conversation is for you, how to navigate conflict. My friend, my guest, Kelsey Blahnik, she is someone I met at a restaurant, and I was fascinated by her work in her new book, The And Way: Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World. And when she told me about what she did and how she helped people, I immediately asked her to be on the podcast.

She works on the front lines of emotional and relational tension, not just in therapy rooms, but in the real-world mess of families, workplaces, and the broader, deeply divided culture that we’re all a part of. In this interview, we talk about how to stay grounded when emotions run high, how you can set boundaries without cutting people out of your life completely and forever, and how to speak your truth without blowing up relationships. We also unpack The And Ways, Kelsey’s unique style of therapy, which teaches you that you always have more than just two extreme options, and it is in the nuance where you can most effectively navigate everyday conflict and repair and create thriving relationships.

So, if you’re tired of either/or thinking, right versus left, and you’re looking for a practical human way to navigate tension with clarity and self-respect, this conversation will give you a new lens and tools you can use immediately. Let’s get into it.

[INTERVIEW]

Hal Elrod: Kelsey, it’s so good to see you again.

Kelsey Blahnik: It’s great to see you, too.

Hal Elrod: This is, I don’t know that I’ve ever had a podcast guest enter the podcast the way that you did and the way that you, you know. For those that don’t know, like you and I were at Nectarine, this awesome restaurant here in town that we frequent, and did you overhear me talking? Was that it, about our books?

Kelsey Blahnik: I heard, I think the person you were with, asking something about getting their book out.

Hal Elrod: That’s right. It was Nate Thomas. He just texted me. He’s the founder of the Shmoody app. Yeah. And then you shared you had a book coming out, and I asked you to share what it was about. It’s called The And Way, which is also your therapy that you created, right? That’s your own methodology.

Kelsey Blahnik: It’s a framework we use.

Hal Elrod: I had you to explain it to me, and I was fascinated, and I was like, “Well, I have a podcast. Will you come on the podcast?” And you’re like, “Well, the book’s not out for like a couple of weeks.” So, yeah, I’m really, really excited to have you on.

Kelsey Blahnik: I’m so excited to be here. And now the book’s out, so this is great timing.

Hal Elrod: Nice. So, your background, clinical social worker, is that correct?

Kelsey Blahnik: That’s right.

Hal Elrod: And for those that don’t know, what is that? What does that profession entail? And how’d you get into it?

Kelsey Blahnik: So, I have always wanted to be a social worker since I was a teenager. And what’s neat about social work compared to a lot of other professions that are out there in the counseling world is we learn how to be both case managers and clinicians. So, the clinician side is what you think of as a mental health therapist. So, I do have a private practice, and that’s what I do now, but when I was using my social work skills to be a case manager, I was working in a bunch of different settings, both in the private and public sectors, being able to serve clients who are either dealing with addiction or were unhoused.

I worked with veterans for a long time. I worked with a lot of different populations in both inpatient and outpatient settings. So, social work is neat because you can cover any different population, and you can do policy work. So many different routes you can go.

Hal Elrod: And then now you’ve had a private practice for how long? And why a private practice? How is that different from the work you were doing before?

Kelsey Blahnik: Yeah. So, I was working at the VA when I got pregnant with my first kiddo, and we were fostering, and we were like, “This is going to be a lot to both deal with trying to leave.” Every time we had to deal with the red tape of taking off 15 minutes of work or something. It was always really tricky because when you have kids, there’s always these things you have to be present for. And so, I was very sick in pregnancy too, and so I decided I wanted a little more flexibility. And so, I would love to get back to that work eventually again, but it was the right time to have my own schedule. And so, I stepped back from that role and just started my practice about, it’s been about 10 years ago now.

Not quite. Let’s see. It was right after the Parkland shooting is when I decided that I wanted to have a private practice that really prioritized accessible, affordable mental health care.

Hal Elrod: I love it, accessible, affordable mental, mental healthcare. So, your practice is called The And Way. It is trademarked. It’s very much yours. It’s also the title of the new book. What is it? What inspired you to create it?

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, it’s all about not living in these extremes. A lot of times, we feel like we’re given these two extreme options, and realizing that there is a lot of gray that we can move within. I think a lot of times we oversimplify, and I think social media has given us a lot of those options to oversimplify things, water it down, so we can put it as the title of a magazine article or a quick reel. And instead, there’s so much complexity available to us, so much complexity within each of us and in our relationships. One of the main things that I talk about is the complexity in relationships and therapy around you don’t have to just cut somebody out of your life once they’ve wronged you, or once you’ve had a hard time.

Hal Elrod: I love that.

Kelsey Blahnik: There are a lot of ways you can set boundaries and have a different kind of relationship that doesn’t mean no contact completely, or it doesn’t mean that you just get walked all over, and you let anything happen either.

Hal Elrod: I love that, and I’m a big fan of that because you see that a lot in society like, “I cut my mom out. She’s toxic,” or it’s like, “Wait, there’s nuance there. There’s history.” They’re seeing other people’s side of the story. Like, for me, I’m a big believer that if you had lived another person’s life, you’d probably be exactly the same. So, stop judging and condemning them because they did not have your life experience, your brain, your perspective, right? And I think we tend to write people off because, “Oh, they don’t say things that I like, and they don’t do things that I like.” So, I love that. So, The And Way. What are some other examples of how we have this black and white thinking, and where The And Way kind of bridges that gap and gives you more of a nuanced approach?

Kelsey Blahnik: So, the way that I discovered this methodology was actually around food, my relationship with food of either feeling like I grew up with the idea that nutrition had to be prioritized, and it was all about weight management and food being about what’s good and bad for you. I got second, that good bad gridlock with foods and labeling them. And then the pendulum swing to the other side of that, that I got introduced to maybe 15 years ago, was the idea of food being available for pleasure and enjoyment. And I think some of the movement, that direction, if we don’t also pay attention to nutrition, gets so focused on just let yourself do anything ever.

And there’s this beautiful balance that we can find in holding both nutrition and pleasure in my relationship with food. And so, that’s what I found, and that’s what I was doing in a lot of my work with clients with disordered eating behaviors and eating disorders. And that’s how I stepped into this in the first place.

Hal Elrod: I love that. I’m really curious because food and eating in terms of the quality of the food I eat, which is why you and I, we’re both probably at Nectarine, right? It’s a clean-eating restaurant. I’m curious, what is a daily, like, what’s an average day in your life look like in terms of when do you eat your first meal? Like, if you’re open to it, walk me through the whole thing because I’m really, really curious because that’s something that I’m hyper-focused on.

Kelsey Blahnik: Oh, how interesting. So, when I wake up, I don’t eat immediately right away. I love my Athletic Greens, I love my LMNT. I’m into that first thing. I love my ice matcha with collagen and coconut butter, so I get some fats and some protein, and start that out in the first few hours. And then I go for a protein bar is like usually the first thing that I eat a few hours into being up. Usually, I love those David’s bars now. That’s what I’m into most recently. But I love Mezcla bars and, what’s another good one? Like, GoMacro. And then…

Hal Elrod: I would GoMacro, not David’s, and not what’s the other one?

Kelsey Blahnik: Mezcla, M-E-Z-C-L-A. Yes. Those are like a treat.

Hal Elrod: I bought a cricket flour bar a few years ago.

Kelsey Blahnik: Oh. Interesting. No, it’s not one of those.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. Crickets, it’s supposed to be the most, like they were pitching it, I don’t see them anymore, but it was this huge thing like, “This is the most sustainable source of protein is crickets.” And I would give them to my kids, “Hey, you want this chocolate bar?” And then I would tell them after they had a few bites, like, “Oh, that’s crickets. Just saying.”

Kelsey Blahnik: Sounds like something cool off Shark Tank or something, the cricket flour.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I think it was on Shark Tank. I’m not sure, but yeah. Alright. Sorry. So, you start with a little bit of morning fasting, and then some fats for the brain, and then a protein bar. And then what?

Kelsey Blahnik: And I’m exercising usually first thing in the morning, like after dropping off kids at school, then getting to work the first few hours, take a lunch break. In terms of what I eat, that depends. I do a lot of leftovers. I’m big on leftovers, but I already have something ready to just heat up real quick in between clients. I’m also a big fan of buffalo cauliflower is like always in the rotation for us. So, buffalo cauliflower, just with some ranch on top.

Hal Elrod: You and I can hang out for a day anytime, Kelsey. And just eat to get like…

Kelsey Blahnik: We’re on the same page.

Hal Elrod: I’m on board. Let’s go. All right. So, leftovers for lunch, and then what about dinner?

Kelsey Blahnik: And then I’m every couple of hours eating, like refueling, with either I love smoothies. I would live off of smoothies, I really would, a smoothie bowl or smoothie anytime. And same with drinking matcha is my favorite thing right now, and has been for years, and I could just live off of putting some protein in my matcha for a long time. And then in dinner is when I probably have my biggest meal, and then I love having like a little something sweet at night. I’m just one that doesn’t really crave sugar first thing in the morning, like how people will go for donuts. Like, that doesn’t even sound good to me. But it’s probably not great that I’m into doing it at night, either, because then it probably gives me a little bit of a wake-up when I need to be shutting down.

Hal Elrod: So, have you ever had Cocojune yogurt?

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes. Love.

Hal Elrod: That’s my dessert now. Like, after I had cancer, I cut way back on sugar.

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes.

Hal Elrod: But I still have that, like I want something sweetish a little bit. Yeah, a little sweet. So, I have Cocojune yogurt, and I actually use half unsweetened, half sweetened. So, there’s like 3 grams of sugar in the whole bowl of yogurt, but it’s so decadent. It’s organic. It’s got like three or four ingredients. It’s amazing. So, that’s my daily go-to.

Kelsey Blahnik: I love that one too. I never think to do that at night, but that’s a great option. It’s usually like an afternoon kind of go-to to me, or maybe instead of a bar, doing that in the morning. I love the Unreal, the mini bars. Like, I love dark chocolate, but those little Unreal mini bars…

Hal Elrod: I do too. I have dark chocolate almost every day.

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, yes.

Hal Elrod: In fact, wait, in my desk drawer, I’ve got two sweetened with dates, by the way. Not refined sugar. So, The Conscious Bar, this is Cacao and Dates Espresso Crunch. And then this is my new favorite. It’s so good. Spring and Mulberry, and again, sweetened with cacao. So, yeah, these are literally like my, like, “Oh, I need a little bit of, bring my sugar levels up,” or whatever. And you get the fat for the brain. You get the best of it all. Plus, the cacao and the phyto. So, lots of good stuff. All right. So, back to The And Way, a little bit of a detour. So, this therapy, you’ve been in private practice for 10 years, helping people with their mental health. Who else do you help? And I would even go as far as to say, who is the book for?

Kelsey Blahnik: Well, what I think is so funny is when I tell people about my book being about relationships and politics and how we navigate that. Most people want to say, “Oh, I know someone who that book’s for,” and they want to point over to somebody else. Like, “Oh, my uncle needs to read that, and my sister needs to read that.” And I encourage them kindly, “This book is for you. This book is for anyone that’s ever dealt with inner conflict.” Those of us who don’t feel like we’re constantly finding ourselves in a state where we’re really, you know, whoever that person is that they’re pointing to, where we’re really causing like actual violence or a lot of verbal insults, a lot of verbal aggression, then this is a great opportunity for you to read this book and be able to look internally and see how can you create more peace in the world by being reflective, by being more intentional, and by being more engaged in what’s going on.

I think a lot of us have landed in a pretty apathetic place because we throw our hands up like, “This is a huge problem. I don’t know how I’m going to contribute. I don’t know how to get all that out there better.” And so, instead, how can we look inward as self-healing leading to world healing?

Hal Elrod: So, kind of the Gandhi, be the change that you wish to see in the world philosophy?

Kelsey Blahnik: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Hal Elrod: And the subtitle of the book, so the book is The And Way. The subtitle is Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World. And I guess that would be a question. It’s like assertive peacemaking in a divided world but this is more for interpersonal relationships, right? Or how would you define how people that reading the book, and I know you address politics and how we are divided, which that’s one of the things that resonated with me when you were talking about the book is I went, “Man, I’m such a stand for unity.” Like, our country, our world is so divided, it’s so polarized, it’s so right versus left, and conservatives or democrats.

It’s like we have to lead in our own family, right? You can’t change other people. You can only change how you show up. So, break down The And Way a little bit. What are some other examples? So, I dove into the food one because that’s where I’m really, I like to nerd out on food. But what are some other examples of how somebody’s going to use this technique? Like, when they read your book or if they’re in therapy with you, but let’s talk about the book, how are they going to apply this in their own life? What are some examples of how this will help people, in a practical way, to improve their relationships, improve their mental health, and so on?

Kelsey Blahnik: Yeah. So, what I start with, the first half of the book is all about how we did this internally. And then once people have really reflected and gone through those chapters, the second half of the book is how we do this interpersonally, when it comes to our one-on-one relationships and also in our community and beyond. And I address like institutions and leadership and how they can apply this as well. So, on an individual basis, I start with using parts language, recognizing that in the moment of crisis, in the moment of conflict, there are usually a few different responses that we go to. And we usually have more of a default.

Maybe it’s not the same default response with every single person, but you may know, “Hey, my default with mom is getting aggressive. Hey, my default with dad is shutting down. My default with my love, my sister is a different one than it is with my boss at work.” And so, getting really introspective about what are those different protective instincts, the reactions that we tend to rely on in these different dynamics, and getting really familiar with where did that come from? What’s the source of why I rely on that instinct in this relationship? How is it trying really hard to serve me well? And then how can I use that to a point where it is beneficial, or it is going to actually help me constructively in a relationship?

Like, there are instances with your boss where being as aggressive for sure, but even being assertive isn’t necessarily a smart survival tactic, right? There are times where being passive is something that helps us survive a difficult situation. And yet, as often as possible, how can we recognize the instinct to want to shut down or explode, and instead pull back and use some grounding techniques to pull back into our most grounded, centered self, and then from there, have a more constructive conversation with someone.

Hal Elrod: So, I love that. I love the approach that it starts with, and it’s like anything, the inner work, right? You’ve got to get at peace with yourself. You’ve got to create some empathy within yourself and some nuance to see both sides of the situation. I think that people, often in conflict, it’s either we shut down or we try to win, right? Like, it’s one or the other. Either you’re like, “Whatever, I throw my hands up, I don’t want to fight.” There’s the conflict avoidant, which I think that’s probably more my camp. And then there’s like, “I’m going to prove you right. I’m right. You’re wrong.” How would The And Way create kind of the nuance between those perspectives or between how you approach, and maybe even some specific verbiage, or techniques that you teach in the book, how you approach it versus not one extreme or the other of shutting down or trying to win?

Kelsey Blahnik: Yeah. So, I go through, in the second part of the book, when we talk about how conversations can actually go, I talk about the different styles of conflict and how, if you’re leaning into more of an aggressive stance, that that’s more of your default response, how you can use some of these skills like practicing I statements, starting with some more vulnerability, as uncomfortable as that is, and being able to identify your want, the actual request you have for being able to move forward in a relationship, how much that can benefit you. And then from a passive stance, why it’s so important to actually name the issue instead of hiding it, that the more we pile stuff under the rug, the taller that bump in the rug gets, and the harder it is to make your way from one end of the room to the other, over to the other person.

Hal Elrod: I like that visual. That makes sense.

Kelsey Blahnik: Yeah. And then when it comes to being able to identify that second part, that want, I think that we’ve really struggled with that in our culture right now. We’re getting a lot better at identifying all our feelings and being able to share some of the things that we don’t like that the other person is. I call that putting in a complaint and not necessarily a request. I think we need to get more often to the request piece. So, the question I like to ask my clients is, what would you need to hear/see, what would you need in order to feel repaired with them? I think we oftentimes stop at, “I don’t like what they did,” and then we’re just ready to push them away or judge them instead of asking, “What would I need to see that other person do to feel like that accountability piece is there to feel repaired?”

And when somebody truly gets to there’s nothing they could do, and that they don’t feel open, so whatever attempts the other person can make, maybe the other person is truly to that level of toxicity that they’re going, there’s no interaction that’s going to feel safe enough. There are times when no contact is appropriate, right? There are those spaces. It’s just that when we do that as the default, that’s when we’re using that a little too much, where it starts to get dangerous.

Hal Elrod: And I’ve seen that in my family, like family members cutting off other family members because they have different political beliefs. And I’m like, “How are you letting political beliefs trump your relationships?” Like, part of the pun there with Trump, right? Like, it’s just interesting. Well, why do you think that is, by the way? Why do people, why are we so polarized that someone is willing to cut off a relationship with someone because of how they vote, or what political party they associate with, that kind of thing?

Kelsey Blahnik: I think it’s a few factors. I think instant gratification, the way that that’s accessible to us now, has left us not as used to discomfort and not as likely to lean into discomfort. I think that we have so many options for relationships, including people online that we never may have interacted with face-to-face that it’s not like in previous generations where the person that you see at the bakery, that baker is the one that if you have a weird interaction, you’re going to have to go back to the bakery next week and get a loaf of bread and interact with them again. You can now even go to 50 other bakeries on Yelp if you didn’t like the way that one interaction went down. And so, I don’t think we get to practice.

Hal Elrod: You just made me think of something, which is this makes so much sense. Like, there’s so much, and I don’t study this, it’s not my area of expertise, but like how the internet has changed humanity and how social media. And what came up specifically is you think about, let’s say, you mentioned before, like our relationships were limited to proximity. I don’t know if you said it that way, but that’s how I would look at it, to proximity, right? Like, before the internet, it was like, “I have relationships with the people that are around me.”

But now, let’s say you and your mom or whoever, your uncle, you fight, and you know there is a Facebook group of people that think exactly like you, the opposite of your uncle, and you’re literally, there’s almost this like, “Ooh, you’re thinking ahead. I’m going to tell him off. I’m going to tell him to screw off. Then I’m going to log into Facebook, and I’m going to tell my group that I told my uncle to screw off, and they’re going to go, ‘Great job. You did it. You got rid of that stupid, ignorant…’” right?

Kelsey Blahnik: Absolutely.

Hal Elrod: I mean, is that part of it?

Kelsey Blahnik: I think that therapists are doing that too, because we only get one side of the story. And so, I think a lot of times I hear that kind of isolationism is actually given more oxygen in the therapy room, and that’s where I’m really leaning into trying to call in the mental health professionals to really encourage repair and really that there are space, there are times for that, and it’s not every time that that’s necessary. I see so often there are keyboard warriors, the people that I see the way they interact online, and then I see the way that they actually interact in person, and it’s so different. They would never say some of the things that they would say online to your face. And so, I think we’ve gotten way too comfortable behind a screen.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. No, it’s so true. And I know that for me, it goes back to what I said earlier, like I guess you’d call it empathy of the perspective that if I had lived that person’s life, I would probably be exactly the same way. Like, that for me is that’s the doorway to unconditional love. Like for me personally, right, it’s like, “Oh, that person did something that I think’s horrible for my…” Like, I’ll give you an extreme example, right? Let’s say someone murdered someone. Well, if they grew up in a gang and all their friends murdered people, and their dad murdered someone, right? That becomes normal. And I’m not justifying it.

I’m just using a really extreme example to where if you grew up in a household where you never saw violence, and you never, right, it wasn’t even a thought, you’d be like, “That’s horrible. What a horrible human being. They deserve to burn in hell.” Whereas, yeah. Anyway, as a therapist, is empathy something, like when you’re talking about repair, what are some of the perspectives that you offer? Kind of like the one that I offered, I mean, different, but what do you offer to your clients to get them to like see the human in the person that they’re now vilifying?

Kelsey Blahnik: I think first it starts with building that self-compassion, recognizing it’s so easy to point at someone else and see hypocrisy and judgment. And then we’re doing it constantly to ourselves, too. You know, that inner critic is in there speaking up with a similar stance of he did this bad thing, and so now you’re a bad person, or you did this bad thing, now you’re a bad mom. And so, being able to work on identifying guilt versus shame. And I also talk about compliance, regret, not pleasing other people’s expectations versus what’s actually in your own values. And then there’s also that aspect of just recognizing that there is a compassionate voice still available to us.

So, getting really in tune with that compassionate voice and that judgmental voice may still be there because maybe that inner critic’s been playing for a while. So, we’ll practice this exercise like, “What would your compassionate self say about that? And what would that judgmental voice say about that?” And we’ll put a big ‘and’ in between. So, in my most compassionate self, I know I’m a great mom, and my inner critic is saying that I really messed up by not remembering ______, ______, ______. And so, then being able to turn that around and doing that when somebody else has caused harm. So, I do this a lot with individual adult clients I work with, and they look back at their childhoods.

And my most judgmental self is saying that my mom, or even just the truth is, the reality is my mom messed up when she made this choice. It harmed me. And in my most compassionate self, I see how she was really overwhelmed after _____ happened to her, or, she didn’t have the skills yet, or she now feels so embarrassed, and that’s why she’s not willing to own up to it. There are a lot of ways where we can hold the judgment for the behavior. We can still hold accountability and have compassion at the same time.

Hal Elrod: I love that. I love all of that. I mean, I think I might reach out to you as a therapist. I love the way that you think about relationships and the nuances and, yeah, which is your whole method, The And Way. I know we’re getting close to time. What do you hope this book will do for everyone who reads it and then for the world at large?

Kelsey Blahnik: I hope that we can stop normalizing violence in our culture and stop normalizing the labeling and name-calling that we’ve started to do, especially about our political opponents, and kind of creating enemies out of one another, and realize that we’re inevitably going to have to keep working together to some extent. And so, we’ve got to find a way to do this. I hope that people will take the time to be more intentional with our language, because dehumanizing language is a precursor to mass atrocities. That’s what history has shown us. And so, even if you don’t feel like you’re someone who is going out and actually causing violence that is clear to the eye, recognizing what is happening internally in your judgment or some of the labeling that you’re engaging in.

Hal Elrod: I love that. That’s what I love about the book is that the first half is really about like you as the individual, but then you go beyond that, and you’re like, “Okay. And how can you take this evolved, peaceful version of yourself and make the world a better place?” I’m looking at the book right now on Amazon. Just some of the reviews. “Transformational read.” “Assertive peacemaking.” “A must read.” “A book for everyone in a divided world.” “This is also a business book.” “A must-read for anyone struggling to connect in today’s polarized world.” Yeah, your book’s got a five-star rating across the board. Well, congratulations. I know as an author what a big deal it is to get your work into the world this way.

Kelsey Blahnik: Thank you so much. I’m so excited about it.

Hal Elrod: The best place to find the book is, I see it’s on Amazon, Kindle, and paperback. And then what’s the best place for people to reach out to you if they want to…? And then do you do virtual therapy as well for people that are located all over?

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, I do. So, my therapy practice is called The And Way Therapy, TheAndWayTherapy.com. And then to find my book and any info on my speaking workshops that I do, it’s TheAndWayPress.com.

Hal Elrod: TheAndWayPress.com

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes. And you can follow me on Instagram.

Hal Elrod: And the website is TheAndWayTherapy.com.

Kelsey Blahnik: That’s right. Yep.

Hal Elrod: Awesome. Cool. Well, Kelsey, again, congrats. I’m so grateful. I don’t think it was an accident that God brought us together at Nectarine. And, yeah, I’m sure I’ll run into you again there.

Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, I hope so. Thank you.

Hal Elrod: Alright. Keep making a difference in the world for so many people.

Kelsey Blahnik: Same to you.

Hal Elrod: Bye-bye.

Kelsey Blahnik: Bye.

[END]