448: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Cathy Heller

Hal Elrod: Welcome to the Achieve Your Goals Podcast. This is your host, Hal Elrod. And today we’re talking to Cathy Heller. Now, you may recognize that name because two weeks ago on the podcast, I featured a conversation between Cathy and I. The difference is that was her interviewing me for her podcast and something magical happened during that conversation. Her and I just connected like soulmates. Like, it’s hard to explain, but I literally had one person in the comments that it was like listening to the conversation was like an out-of-body experience. Another gal said it was the best interview she has ever heard. If you missed that one and the title of that episode is A Fresh Perspective On The Miracle Morning with me and Cathy, again, Cathy interviewing me, but she asked me such different questions. She’s such a fantastic interviewer that I shared it with the audience, with you guys and gals, and got great feedback. So, that’s Episode 446. You can listen to it at MiracleMorning.com/446.

 

Now, Cathy, I asked her to be on my podcast because, I mean, you’ll see. She is a fire hose of inspiration. And if you’re not familiar with her work, which is weird, like I had never heard of Cathy and she went from like 0 to 6, like from unknown by me to being one of my favorite people on the planet and you’ll find out today. You’ll hear us talk about that. In fact, I actually break it down after I listen to her for a while. I then shine a spotlight on three factors that I believe are what make her so special, among many others. But she’s the host of the popular podcast, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, which has over 40 million downloads. It’s been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, Huffington Post, Inc Magazine, Business Insider. It’s been featured several times on Apple Podcasts, and every week she encourages thousands of listeners to find more purpose, to make an impact, and to build an abundant life by doing what they love. And you’re going to get a glimpse of that today. And throughout the show, she’s interviewed successful authors, celebrities, entrepreneurs, spiritual leaders, experts, everyday heroes about what led them to the biggest moments in their lives and how you, too, can create a life that you can’t wait to wake up to every single day.

 

And I want to give you just like a taste. Listen to some of her past guests, actors like Matthew McConaughey, Alicia Silverstone, and Jenna Fischer, thought leaders like Tony Robbins and Seth Godin. Grammy award-winning singers like Harry Connick Jr. and Jason Mraz, and one of my favorite musicians of all time, Andy Grammer. She’s had celebrity cook, Rachael Ray, on her show, bestselling authors, Deepak Chopra, Gretchen Rubin. Malcolm Gladwell, psychologist Adam Grant, Shark Tank’s Barbara Corcoran and Daymond John, Starbucks founder Howard Schultz. And today she tells an incredible story, by the way, about Howard Schultz and his upbringing, how he founded Starbucks coming from nothing. No, not nothing, but like literally next to poverty. Anyway, that’s just a few of her guests. She’s phenomenal. Her book, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, is filled with inspirational stories from people in her community who have taken control of their life’s journey. And her book goes into detail about how to find the work you’re meant to do, how to grow your business, and wake up to a life that you love.

 

And today’s conversation, I titled it Overcoming Imposter Syndrome because we touched on a lot of topics, but I felt like that was the theme. If you ever struggle with thinking like, “Oh, I’m not special. I’m not capable, I’m too old to create the life of my dreams.” Whatever it is, Cathy is just a lighthouse of belief in the unlimited potential that is within each of us. And then she’s broken down, how do you tap into that? In fact, toward the very end of this conversation, she’s going to break down the five different categories, five different approaches that you can take to not keep your day job, but to find work that is purposeful and gives you meaning. And that, again, you can’t wait to wake up every day and live a life that you absolutely love.

 

Before we dive into the conversation, let me take a minute to thank our sponsors. And I want to acknowledge in terms of Organifi, our first sponsor or longtime sponsor, Organifi, I usually tell you about the same products over and over again, but there’s a new product that I just ordered because I’ve been having pain in my joints. I don’t know about you but I don’t have arthritis. I’m kind of young but I’ve had chemo and stuff. But the product’s called Organifi Move. And Organifi Move contains powerful nature-derived ingredients shown to support overall joint health, as well as increasing mobility and flexibility in the body. It’s actually the only organic joint support product on the market formulated with three clinically proven ingredients, turmeric, pine bark, and this last one is tough to pronounce, astaxanthin. I think that’s it. But it improves overall joint health, flexibility, and mobility in your joints. It aids in soreness and stiffness and aches and pains. So, if you’re like me and your movement’s becoming a little limited or have some pain in your joints, check out Organifi Move. Head over to Organifi.com/Hal and then use the code “HAL” at checkout to get 20% off your entire order as a listener of the Achieve Your Goals podcast. And again, if you’re new to hearing about Organifi, they’ve got protein powder and products for sleep and all sorts of stuff. It’s all organic, whole food-based supplements.

 

And then last but not least, I want to thank our sponsor, CURED Nutrition, CUREDNutrition.com/Hal and I use two of their products every day. I use Rise first thing in the morning. It’s a nootropic that helps you focus on what you need to do, knock out that to-do list, helps with cognitive function. And then at night, I take their product, Nightcaps, which is a combination of CBD oil and CBN oil. One has a relaxing effect, one has a sedative effect, and I am sleeping better than I have in a long time. So, Rise I take in the morning to get me going and it has no caffeine, by the way. I do green tea for my caffeine and then I take Nightcaps at night. So, if you want to wake up better or go to bed better, either one, head over to CUREDNutrition.com/Hal and then use the same code “HAL” at checkout for 20% off your entire order. And for me, that’s like my one-two punch, Organifi and CURED Nutrition. I combine all of those for both an array of supplements to help me optimize my mental and physical game each and every day.

 

All right. Without further ado, one of my favorite people on the planet, let’s talk about overcoming imposter syndrome and a heck of a lot more with Cathy Heller.

 

[INTERVIEW]

 

Hal Elrod: Cathy Heller, in case anybody’s listening, I just want them to know we have done no prep. You came on and I said, “Cathy, I don’t want to miss a word of whatever the heck we talk about even all the pleasantries and how are you and everything.” So, this is magical. God, I haven’t talked to you in, what, two weeks?

 

Cathy Heller: I love you so much. I just am so in love with you. You’re so special. Special is like it’s nowhere near the right word. I just felt, oh, my God. And we’ve both been around this block and we both know really cool people. And I’ve gotten to have on my show like Deepak Chopra, no big deal, and Tony Robbins. And, Hal, like I was bawling my eyes out because I think when people hear truth, they can’t help it. They just are brought to tears. Like, it’s like looking at the Grand Canyon or you can look at Michelangelo’s work in the Vatican and you just whisper or you cry. You were like unwrapping a Christmas present that just kept coming like to new surprises. We’re like 45 minutes in, and you were like, “Oh, let me tell you this,” and then it was like 3 minutes before we got off you’re like, “And let me tell you…” I was like, “What is it with you? What is happening?” The amount of goodness that you give is equal to like a thousand amazing souls. I just get to be one of those people who says thank you for all your courage and generosity that you want to give that to somebody else because you do it so well.

 

So, I am glad you recorded that because that’s all true. And I haven’t stopped talking about you. Everyone knows about you because wherever I go now, I just have to add that, you and how you impacted me.

 

Hal Elrod: You’re amazing. Everyone has to listen to us tell each other how amazing each other are for a few minutes here. And that, by the way, what you just did is your gift. It’s one of I’m sure many but the way that you just acknowledged me and that’s like what you do in the podcast. By the way, I did want to mention, you said something about it was like when people see Michelangelo’s work. I get compared to Michelangelo’s work a lot. So, I just wanted to – no. I’m kidding. But no, like, I can’t even explain. I think me and you need to co-host a podcast or something, right?

 

Cathy Heller: Or at least an event.

 

Hal Elrod: Something. Like, the comments from people because like you felt something really special during our conversation. I felt it. I’m like, we’re like, “What is happening here?” And then when people listen to it, the comments, like one person said listening to our conversation was an out-of-body experience for them.

 

Cathy Heller: Like, whoa, we really didn’t want to do that. I hope you’re back in your body.

 

Hal Elrod: I hope so. And somebody else was like, “This is the best interview I’ve ever seen.” Like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I talked to my wife like 5 minutes ago. I said, “Hey, I’m about to interview Cathy Heller. You know who that is?” She’s like, “Yeah, that woman you’ve been talking about for the last couple of weeks that she interviewed you or whatever.” And I was like, “Yeah, okay. Yeah, you know her.”

 

Cathy Heller: “Yeah, her.” We need to get our families together. That would be so much fun.

 

Hal Elrod: Where do you live? I forgot.

 

Cathy Heller: I live in Los Angeles.

 

Hal Elrod: Oh, okay. Are you going to escape? No, I’m sorry. That’s another topic.

 

Cathy Heller: I know. Well, that needs to be recorded on another platform. But, yeah, we should get our families together. I think part of what you and I do is like we’re both super vulnerable. Like, we both have really big open hearts, and we probably weren’t trying to be the most popular kid in high school. We were just a really kind person and genuinely seemed to care. And I think people can tell and like, “Oh, my God. And then you met each other. How neat.” You’re so lovable and so freaking smart. I wake up now. I was always an early riser, and I had some kind of a morning practice but since you, I wake up. I’ve been going to bed at 9:30 because of you, so I could wake up at 5 a.m.

 

Hal Elrod: Nice.

 

Cathy Heller: I want to be in that energy so thank you for that.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. You’re welcome. What are we even going to talk? I had some questions I wrote down.

 

Cathy Heller: Starting a business, side hustles, finding your purpose.

 

Hal Elrod: Well, let’s start with this. So, you’re one of the top podcasters in the history of humanity. I like to say it in a way that’s like I could say on iTunes or whatever but like in the history of humanity. Since the beginning of time, you have emerged as one of the top podcasters in the history of the world. So, starting there. What’s made your podcast and your message resonate so much? How have you built such an engaged audience? Like, let’s start there.

 

Cathy Heller: Thank you so much for saying that. Yeah. That is such a cool way to say it. I think that we can all be Wi-Fi routers for each other. I think when somebody can see further than you’re seeing and they actually see it, they see it so clearly that you start to reach for a higher branch. And I think with me, I was just always able to say to people, “Can I show you a mirror of who you really are?” Like, whether you are my Uber driver or my waiter or my best friend, I’m like, “You’re amazing.” You know, my best friend, she started a business making vegan corned beef because she had become vegan and I said, “This is insane. You have to do something with this.” And she wound up going on Shark Tank. Now, her business has just been, whatever, quantified at $75 million evaluation.

 

Hal Elrod: Oh, my gosh.

 

Cathy Heller: Two-and-a-half years in. But I do this with everyone and my husband’s always like, “It’s a little bit dangerous. Like, you’re so influential. You encourage people so much and then what if they don’t follow through?” I’m like, “No, because God’s got you.” Like, this universe, right, the way that I’m going to use the word “God” and if people don’t like that word, use any word you like. I just think that there is something so obvious going on in this world that is loving you into life. And it’s not neutral. It’s net positive. So, you can like bend reality. Like, if you take a step forward, the rewards are disproportionate. We all know that, right? I had Bob Goff on my show and he was like if you woke up every day and made a list of five ways you could contribute, you were just focused on being generous in the world, oh, my gosh, you know how to make banana bread. You’re going to make a loaf for your family and leave a loaf at somebody’s door. You know what? Opportunities. Next thing you know, you’re going to have 15 businesses. You’re going to be helping somebody else with a thing. You’re going to be on the board of this event that raises money.

 

Like, we don’t get the juice out of our generous hearts, our creative selves, because we’re constantly, honestly, self-involved. And what’s interesting is the ego, we all have one, it doesn’t really want to think about itself and that’s what makes us depressed. Like, when you’re home, the reason you’re sad is because you were made for others. You were made to serve. You were made to give. You are made to collaborate. So, when you’re sitting in your couch all day watching Netflix and feeling like, “Why don’t I feel better? Why do I need to add something else to cart to feel better?” It’s because you have so much to give and what keeps you up at night, it’s not because your marriage is failing. It’s not because of this. It’s because you have this potential that you were sitting on and it’s killing you because your soul, it’s like, “I came here to do some stuff. I don’t know what those things are.” So, one thing I like to talk to people about on my podcast is how you can even start to identify what some of your gifts might be. And then the reason I like to teach people how to start a business is because it keeps you accountable to doing the stuff, right?

 

Like if you say, “I’m going to start a hobby,” you might not follow through. But if you just sold somebody a cheesecake and they needed three cheesecakes for a birthday party by Sunday, you will get them done. And what Seth Godin taught me, who is my mentor, he said, “Cathy, business is radical empathy. If somebody is going to take money that they earned and give it to you because they need or want the service or the product or the thing you’re doing, you have to care about that person. And if your business fails is because there’s a lack of empathy. You’re not looking at feedback, you’re not looking at reviews, you’re not listening to what they’re saying.” So, I think starting a business is really a secret way for you to have the best personal development journey of your life. It also gets you out of yourself. It helps you tell a story. So, I think that’s probably why the podcast resonated because I’m so enthusiastic about this. And the Talmud says, “Words from the heart enter the heart.”

 

And I think when somebody is being honest even if they’re just telling you about Bruce Springsteen and how much they love him and what they saw on this tour they went on, you all of a sudden be compelled to like go follow Bruce Springsteen because they’re so in their resonance when they talk about it. And so, you and I do that, right? No one had to tell you to care about the things you’re saying. You picked a topic of the things that you care about. So, with podcasting and we could talk about that too, how to grow a podcast, that’s numero uno.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. So, what I see as I hear and see as I’m listening to you talk and I resonate like…

 

Cathy Heller: A lot of hand gestures.

 

Hal Elrod: What did you say?

 

Cathy Heller: A lot of hand gestures. I’m like, “What is he going to say?” and see a lot of this.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah, because I feel like I’m looking in a mirror in some ways and like hearing you talk, and then it makes me think even like go inside and be like, “Oh, I relate to how that showed up for me.” So, here’s what I think has made you resonate. It’s authenticity and vulnerability, which are kind of like two sides of the same coin, right? When you’re vulnerable, there’s a great quote from Robin Sharma that I love that I live by. He said, “When you are vulnerable, people fall in love with you.” We’re always trying to be the opposite of vulnerable. We’re trying to protect our vulnerabilities.

 

Cathy Heller: And be cool,  yeah.

 

Hal Elrod: Right? And be cool and impressive and nobody gives a sh*t about you being impressive. They just want to know who you are, that you care, how you can help them, right? So, that’s the first thing is you’re authentic and vulnerable. The second thing is that you care about other people. You genuinely care about other people. And the third thing is that you are a lighthouse in terms of your enthusiasm. So, like when I was in sales and people would ask me like, “How did you sell so much Cutco,” I go like, “I had no sales skills. I just had enthusiasm.” And I once heard that definition of selling is a transfer of enthusiasm from one person to another. And you just mentioned it like if you’re like, “Bruce Springsteen’s the greatest person ever. I saw the concert.” And you’re like, “I don’t even like Bruce Springsteen.” But by the end of that person’s story, like…

 

Cathy Heller: I know. No, he’s fine but yeah.

 

Hal Elrod: “Dude, I’ve got to go google Bruce Springsteen or like watch some YouTube videos and download some song.” So, that’s it. So, it’s authenticity, it’s care, and it’s enthusiasm. And if you’re listening, check in with yourself. Are you authentic? Do you just put yourself out there without reservation, without worrying so much what other people are going to think? Like, when we’re out and about, my kids, my wife, they’re like, “Hal, you’re talking so loud.” You too? Yeah. I’m like, “Good.” I’m always coming from a place of love. So, if somebody overhears that, awesome. And if somebody’s bothered, like, oh, I don’t know. I’m sorry, but…

 

Cathy Heller: Thank you so much. It means so much to me coming from you because you hold the award for like so cool in my book. You’re just such a person of integrity. So, all of those things mean so much to me. And it reminds me of my friend, Lauren. She went to Stanford and then stayed up there and worked with people who were going to do TED Talks to coach them on like how to do a good TED Talk. And she showed me this one clip and it’s from the debates with Bill Clinton and George Bush Senior. And she shows this one point in this debate, this town hall debate. And by the way, I never talk politics. I’m the most apolitical person. If anything, I’m purple. I’m not red or blue. I am like issue by issue. So, this is not about politics. But she showed me this clip where Bill Clinton walks into the audience and he says to this woman, “Can I put my hand? Do you mind if I put my hand on your shoulder?” And she says, “Okay,” and he goes, “I get it. I’m a kid from Arkansas.” And Lauren said he won the debate in that moment like they showed the ratings and what happened. And it’s not about having the information or the right answers. It’s like it’s that caring, authentic, vulnerable thing.

 

And if you think about even like American Idol, I know it’s like silly, but this is something that people at home, we get a chance to weigh in on and we always pick the vulnerable person. Like, nobody will forget Kelly Clarkson and her voice cracking. Cracking. She sang a moment like this. And if you look at all the people who even won after that, you don’t really remember but we remember her because she showed vulnerability on national television. She’s like, “I’m just a girl from Texas, and like, I can’t help it, like this is a moment like for my life,” and like they love that. They don’t care if she’s a size zero. They don’t care if she doesn’t have the perfect voice at that moment. They feel like that’s courage. So, I do think that that’s what it takes to be good in all of the things. And I think we’ve just gotten really bought into the ego and comparing ourselves and the number of followers and it’s really focusing on the wrong things.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. There’s a quote that I have a bunch of quotes that I was right when I ever thought that I’m like, “Ooh, that’s good.” And I put it on my website on my quotes page or whatever. But there’s one that says, “Stop trying to impress people. Just focus on how you can add value to their lives.”

 

Cathy Heller: Yeah. Get right to it.

 

Hal Elrod: Nobody cares about impressing. And I think for anybody listening like who you are and you said it earlier like every person has so much in them. And I think that we listen to the voice of doubt. We compare ourselves to others, right? In fact, I’d love to hear your take on that. Like, how does somebody overcome those feelings of being unworthy or of imposter syndrome?

 

Cathy Heller: Oh, my gosh. I mean, it’s so much along the lines of what you just said. But my very favorite answer to that is somebody I already quoted, I’m going to quote him again, Seth Godin, because he’s like kind of taken me under his wing over the last few years. He told me this example and he goes, “Let’s say you’re worried about how you’re going to get over imposter syndrome.” He goes, “Imagine if you were a lifeguard and it’s only your third day on the job and the senior lifeguard tells you that he or she is going to go take a 30-minute lunch break and they’ll be back. And sure enough, they’re gone for 30 minutes and somebody is drowning. There’s a little boy drowning. Do you think for one second that you’re going to say, ‘I’m going to wait for her to get back because my cross-body hold is not perfect at this point, and I wasn’t expecting to have to do this, and I’m not sure I’m good enough.’? Like, hell no. Even if you’re not the lifeguard, you’re jumping in the water, you’re showing up because it’s not about you.”

 

And so often what people really want from the person who’s podcasting or selling them coffee at the local coffee shop, they don’t care how perfect the coffee is. They care that you were present. They care that you showed up. They care that you make eye contact. And then the other stuff figures itself out. It’s like you’re invested in trying to show up and do your best. And we’ve lost that art. Oh, my gosh. I mean, my friend, James Altucher, says that he feels his whole business is a result of literally giving ideas to other people. He said he has this practice for the last 20 years where whatever he’s doing, no matter what the day is, if you just listen to a podcast, if he’s reading a book, could be your book, he will stop and once a day make a list of ideas for someone else and email you and say, “Hey, Hal, you’ve never met me. My name is James. Here were ten ideas I had. First of all, your first chapter that’s so impressive. That could be a short documentary. And I have a friend who I think you could do this with. And these are the three things I thought you could have in scene one.”

 

He literally has been giving ideas away because, A, he said it’s easier than himself because his resistance doesn’t come up and it helps him practice that muscle of creativity. And, B, it gives him so many opportunities because people write back and say, “That was like the coolest email and do you want to work on that with me?” And now at this point, he’s like, “No, I can’t. I don’t have any time.” But we are meant to not worry about ourselves. What I learned is and I told this to my husband because my husband is not a lifeguard. He’s a comedian and he’s really good and he’s really funny. And he went through a lot of pain as a kid and his dad died suddenly in 1987. And so, to make his mom happier, he learned to be funny. And he’s really funny. It was a way that they got through a lot of hard times. So, eventually, I said to him,
“Well, what’s this really about? You’re not doing standup, right? You’re not going to go to the club. You’re not going to get up. Is that about you or everybody else? I think it’s egocentric.”

 

I said to him, “Your humility, what you think is humility is ego because if this was about someone else, you would say, ‘So, I might not have the best perfect like voice or tone or setup, but I’m going to go out there. And even if I make six people laugh tonight, I’m going to make it about them.’ And sure enough, when you even have that energy and you’re not holding on to, ‘What do they think of me? How am I doing?’ it is already good. It’s already funny. It’s already better.” So, I think the “I’m not good enough” imposter syndrome is egotistical and I think anyone who’s listening, especially to your show, that’s not your value. You want to be altruistic. So, get busy and make things that you iterate on. Like, let’s get over that.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. And James is the perfect example of authenticity and non-perfection. He’s so awkward. Like, James and I…

 

Cathy Heller: He’s quirky. That’s his thing.

 

Hal Elrod: He’s quirky. He’s so unique and different. But in terms of like if you are comparing how he communicates with like a speech coach, right, he would fail all the tests, you know what I mean?

 

Cathy Heller: Fail everything.

 

Hal Elrod: But everybody loves him because he’s himself. And if you’re listening to this, amplify who you are. And, Cathy, something that you said really the theme of what you’ve been weaving through this whole you talking so far is selflessness. You said altruistic, right? I think that’s one of the greatest lessons. And that reminds me of the quote, “Don’t worry about trying to impress people. Just focus on how you can add value to their lives.” And I read a book called Love is the Killer App by Tim Sanders, who’s the former CEO of Yahoo!

 

Cathy Heller: Never even heard it.

Cathy Heller: I love when somebody tells me about something amazing that I haven’t yet heard and I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to get my hands on it.

 

Hal Elrod: So, I read it in 2005. And Love Is the Killer App, meaning, basically, he’s saying today in business, love is the most important application to be successful. And he says back in the day, it was power, it was this, it was that. And he said, now people have so many options. It used to be like if you worked for a company that was like, oh, God, I need to hang on to this job for the rest of my life. And the boss could be a total as*, you know what I mean? And it’s like, because you had nowhere else to go.

 

And now, it’s like, I’m going to go post my resume on a website that then send it out to 150 companies. So, it’s like he talks about that love is the advantage that you have if you can come from a place of love, if you can express love and you can be loved, if you can love others, if you can share. And from that book, I defined my purpose in life to selflessly add value to the lives of others. And that was in 2005. And immediately, I got– what did you say?

 

Cathy Heller: Mission accomplished.

 

Hal Elrod: Thank you. Well, no, and it’s true. And it goes back to Zig Ziglar’s quote which is you can have everything you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want. I have another mentor who gave a speech once and he said, get off self and on purpose. So, you look at all these themes and the secret to success is to get off self and to get on purpose. It’s to go, okay, how can I help as many people as I possibly can and start at home? Start with your family. How can I add value for my spouse, for my kids, for my friends, for my mom, for my dad, for my family? How can I add value and become a person, like that’s your mission in life is looking for ways to add value? When James sends a list of 20 ideas, all he’s doing is how can I add value for this person in the form of ideas.

 

Cathy Heller: Totally, yeah.

 

Hal Elrod: And so, yeah, when you do that, one thing that it does is it allows you to transcend your imposter syndrome and your insecurity because you said something a few minutes ago, which became my mantra that year, the year that I defined my purpose to selflessly add value, my mantra became, it’s not about me. Whenever I was like, I don’t feel like doing this, I was like, whoa, whoa, it’s not about me. I’m too tired to do this. Whoa, it’s not about me. I’m afraid I’m not good enough. Whoa, it’s not about me, right?

 

Cathy Heller: Yeah. And the thing about it, I know it’s a little bit funny, maybe not to everybody, but I had Dr. Phil on my podcast and I was like, what’s this going to be like? What’s he going to be like? He was great. And one of the things he said was, when you do that, you receive it. So, he’s like, if you’re feeling lonely and you know that there’s an elderly woman who lives next door and you decide to help her feel less lonely, that’s when you feel, whatever it is that you’re missing, when you give it away, you receive it. And I think we get that.

 

I had Alicia Silverstone on a couple of weeks ago and I asked her, what was the turning point in her life that brought her some sense of like peace? And she said, this is going to sound maybe weird but breastfeeding my son because in that moment I knew exactly what I was supposed to do and there was nowhere else to go. And as much as he wanted to nurse, I wanted to give this. I physically was uncomfortable unless I gave it. And as soon as I gave it, I felt back what I gave.

 

Marianne Williamson said to me that if you looked at the ocean, you would be crazy and you would never think that one wave is separate from another because you can see that there’s no place where they split. And if you looked at the ocean, you wouldn’t think the waves were separate from the ocean themselves because they’re so obviously one and the same. And that’s us.

 

Like Einstein, I was just reading more and more about what he had to say. And he said, we see the world in 3D cubes because our eyeball perceives things with height, depth, and width. But he said, there are not three dimensions, there’s 10. There are 10 dimensions to the universe. Time is the fourth dimension, but that’s elastic. The fifth dimension is beyond space and time, but then there are aspects of the universe that just go bigger and bigger.

 

So, from God’s perspective, there’s this one long present moment and there’s just this oneness, this oneness, this oneness. And so, I think for me, part of what really just turned all the lights on was after college, I took a two-week trip to Jerusalem and I stayed for three years. And so, before I came to Los Angeles in 2003, I was there, I was learning, I was absorbing. And so, when I came to LA, I had this notion that we are each a masterpiece, a piece of the master. We are someone, some of the one. So, of course, you want to give because you want to be clear about who you are.

 

I had Deepak Chopra on, and he talked about how it’s very sad, but the number two cause of death in people under the age of 18, which are considered children, 17 and younger, the number two cause of death is suicide. And he said that means we have failed as a society to teach people who they are because they’re so caught in the story of the ego versus the eye and the truth of who you are, the soul, the consciousness, the part that you’re not separate from anything else. You’re a part, you’re needed. You’re part of this whole beautiful geometric pattern. And so, every person, including you that I’ve had on my podcast, now, 650 people, they all meditate, they all pray, they all find their way to the frequency that’s bigger than what your eyes see.

 

I was listening to The Greatest Showman the other day, and that song, A Million Dreams, she says, I closed my eyes and I can see. Like we see further with our eyes closed. When you wish on a candle, when you pray, all those things, you close your eyes, and then you see. So, when we’re looking with our eyes, we often see our egos. We see each other’s egos. We compare our egos to each other. We try to be impressive, but when you close your eyes and you feel into your heart, you feel into the space, you’re like, how many people could I love? An endless amount, right? And how much creativity could I allow through? Endless. And how much is there? How much room is there for all of us? Endless.

 

So, we’ve just gotten so off track. We’re so bought into what is it’s temporary, it’s fleeting. Deepak said to me, oh, you’re not your soul. You’re your body. Great. Which one? Your body at six months old? Your body at 14? Because all of that was changing. The only thing that’s true is that which doesn’t change, your essential self when you were conceived, that moment, that life force, that spark of electricity, that moment, that’s you, that hasn’t changed. That’s never changing. You, Hal, I could picture meeting you when you were seven years old and me being like, this kid is so sweet. Like, he might be goofy. I’m just kidding. But, like, he’s so sweet. And, like, that was me.

 

Like, I was the girl in fifth grade at Ashley Crone’s House, if she’s listening. And I said to her, I can’t believe you invited me to your party because she was like the blond-haired, blue-eyed cheerleader. She never invited me again. But like, who says that out loud? Like, I’ve always been this person. And that’s the unchanging. And that’s not about what I look like or how tall I am or what I’m eating or who I’m friends with because all of that has changed. My lunchbox is different. What I watch on TV is different. I’m taller, but I’m not different because that’s my soul. That’s the essential self.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I’m with you. Michael Singer calls it the seed of consciousness. Have you read his new book, Living Untethered?

 

Cathy Heller: It’s amazing.

 

Hal Elrod: It’s so good.

 

Cathy Heller: So good.

 

Hal Elrod: Right. But he talks about that and he’s not the only one. I mean, many– truth is truth, right? But he says that if you ask someone who they are, they usually answer with their name. It’s like, well, no, those are just some words that your parents assigned you at birth. You’re like, oh, yeah, that’s true. We really identify, like, yes, I am this person. And then you’d go, no, who are you? And you go, oh, I’m a 43-year-old man. And it’s like, but wait. Yeah, when you were looking in the mirror at 10, wasn’t it the same you looking even though your body, you’re like, oh, yeah.

 

So, it’s true to live from that place. I did a whole podcast episode after I read that book, like I talked about this concept of like, who are we? We are consciousness. And I like to think of it. You use an analogy about the ocean. I like to think that each of us was a droplet of water in the ocean of God.

 

Cathy Heller: It’s all God. It’s one big video game called God.

 

Hal Elrod: Same stuff, made of the same stuff. And if that’s even a little bit true, then for you to think that you are not worthy of infinitely anything and everything that you want for your life. So, let me ask you that, what do you think is the biggest thing that holds people back from taking steps towards the life they desire, whatever that is for them?

 

Cathy Heller: Oh, my gosh. I love that question. I think it’s that they believe a lie and it’s one of two lies. And it’s either this is not possible. If something’s not possible, why would you take a step toward it? Maybe not. Or I am not good enough at this thing. Like I’m not worthy of doing this thing.

 

So, I think that’s what has to be changed. And I think what people like you do, I think what my podcast does is it shows us evidence that things are possible. When I was growing up, we had Career Day. I don’t even know if they do that anymore. But I remember, who would come to Career Day? A fireman. One time, it was like so out of the box because a guy came who worked in an ad agency, and I was like, what’s that?

 

So, if you’re creative, the most creative thing you could ever do is that guy’s thing. So, we reach for the highest branch. We can see. My friend Alex Banayan told me a story about Teach for America, and this teacher for Teach for America said, tell the second graders to draw something they want to be when they grew up. And this one drew an astronaut and this one drew whatever, a marine biologist with a dolphin. And this kid in the back of the room drew nothing. And the teacher walked over and said, do you understand the assignment? Draw anything you want to be when you grow up. He drew a pizza delivery guy.

 

So, the teacher called the mom at the end of the day and said, I wanted to talk to you about Steven. He drew a pizza delivery boy. Do you think you have any ideas why this assignment was this? And she said, I can tell you exactly why. His father’s in prison. And his uncle is the only other man in his life. He’s a pizza delivery guy.

 

Hal Elrod: Wow.

 

Cathy Heller: And so, why don’t people take a step forward? They don’t see another possibility. We limit what is possible, but when we see people who are doing things, who are able– Howard Schultz was on my show. He grew up in public housing. He grew up at the last stop of the L train in Canarsie, Brooklyn. And Jewish Family Services used to bring them food. And his mother would say to him, this is the last stop of the L train, but look at me. This will not be your last job. You promise me. You don’t get off here?

 

And when I interviewed him, we both started to cry. When he told me that, he said, you really just heard that? So, that made me cry. And I said, it does make me cry because that belief she instilled in you. Howard, you’re a billionaire with a B. You give people at Starbucks health care, like there have been books written about people who got a part-time job at Starbucks to go through chemo because he’s done that for people. That’s possibility making, right?

 

And Hal, that started, which is just such a fun story because it relates to anyone’s story. He worked at FedEx doing cold calling, got a job in sales for a coffee-growing company, had never been out of the country. They sent him to Italy. He was at a conference. He thought to himself, I don’t want to be at the conference. I’ve never been out of the country. I grew up a poor kid. I want to take a walk. He walked around the block, saw people sitting with tiny little espresso talking to each other, and he said, I don’t understand, these people, the cup is empty, but they’re lingering. In Europe, they linger, they’re with each other. They make space. They don’t go there for the coffee. They go for the conversation.

 

And he said, we don’t have a place like that in America. If we want to get coffee, it’s a Denny’s of bacon, eggs, and coffee, he said. But if I just made coffee, I wonder if people would come for the conversation. And so, he built the very first Starbucks with that in mind that somebody would come just for coffee, so that they’d meet with their friends, they’d have conversations and that intention. He now has 35,000 Starbucks.

 

Hal Elrod: Wow.

 

Cathy Heller: And he made billions of dollars. But the point is, when you hear a story like that, you’re like, okay, if our greatest resource is our creativity, our passion, our compassion, our resourcefulness, what really is possible? So, starting to feel how much more space there is, how much more expansion, I think that’s number one. And then number two, I like to break it down like really don’t make great the enemy of good. Like John Wooden said, take a step forward.

 

And so, for instance, for anyone who’s listening, if you’re like, I would like to start a business, I think part of it is the steps feel so overwhelming. I’m going to tell you in two minutes how you can do it, how Howard Schultz did it, how I started a podcast, how anyone built anything. The first thing you do is you give it away for free. That’s the first thing you do. So, if it’s peanut butter, they’re doing focus groups all day long, right? If it’s Hyundai, you come in for a free test drive. Like you don’t have to stand up and sell, you give it away for free because you want the space to iterate.

 

The second thing you do is you get feedback. You make your own focus group, hand somebody that vegan corned beef, hand someone your gluten-free cake pop, give someone an hour of reorganizing services, and then do the feedback loop. What did you like about it? What did you not like about it? What would you change about it? What would you pay for this? That is so valuable. Do that a few times.

 

Now, you have enough data. You can say, they want the organizing services to be streamlined. I’m going to start with people’s offices, or they want the gluten-free cake pops to have more cinnamon. Great note. I’m going to add the cinnamon. Now, you go back with the improved version and you see, do they like it? And if the answer is yes, now you sell it.

 

Hal Elrod: Now you don’t.

 

Cathy Heller: If you sell that to one person, and this is what people don’t understand, one satisfied customer, that’s your tipping point. That’s it. From there, you scale it. So, when people say, I don’t know how to get started, what they’re really saying is, I’m overwhelmed. But when you break it down, it’s not overwhelming. It just takes the courage to be willing to be messy. And the problem for most people is I don’t want to give myself the time and space to be messy because I feel shame unless I know that even for this neighbor of mine with trying my gluten-free cake pop, I’m nervous to fail.

 

If you go back and look at kids in preschool classes, they’re okay being messy. They’ve got paint in their nose. We’re all like that at one point. And come second grade or turning 19, somebody rejected us, somebody was harsh. You learned not to do anything unless you knew from the outset exactly how it would go and exact, but nobody’s built anything like that. And so, in order for you to build anything that’s worthwhile, you need the courage to put yourself out there, care about people, and give yourself that time to iterate. You iterate.

 

By Episode 9 of your podcast, you will find your voice. You’ll get feedback from people. You’ll reshape the show. Everyone. Like Fred Astaire also. Look under his top shoes. His feet have been banged up. He tried it a few times, right? So, if you give yourself that grace, you could do a lot of good things.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I think that you mentioned people not wanting it to be messy. I think that we have this idea that it needs to be perfect. And also, when we look at other people who are very successful and we only see their perfect success, they come across as perfect and then we create this separation and go, oh, I’m not like them. I’m not as polished, I’m not as well-spoken. I don’t have their charisma, I don’t have their talent, I don’t have their experience. Ha, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing, right, versus you see how messy their road to success was, how many failures, how many auditions they were kicked out of, how many businesses failed before the one succeeded?

 

I think I just was in England a couple of days ago. I spoke at Arbonne, and before I spoke, it was like the second or third day of the event and all these top– I was the only outside speaker. So, everybody else on stage, and I was in the audience watching. I always like to get an idea of what’s going on. And these people are on a pedestal, and this person’s got this business, and this person got this business. And that was like my opening when I went out there. I just said, hey, I said, this morning you heard from Andrea and Ian and Alice and Kelly. Holy sh*t. I can’t remember those names.

 

Cathy Heller: Are those real?

 

Hal Elrod: Those are the real names.

 

Cathy Heller: I’m sure those were not real.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah, those are the real names. And so, that was who spoke that morning out before I did, and I said, very likely that you put them on a pedestal and you think, oh, if only I was like them. I want you to understand they were once born, they were a baby, and they had never sold urban in their life. And then they took their first step and then they– and so, the point is anything another human being has done is evidence of what’s possible for you. I’ll say that again. Internalize that if you’re listening. Anything another human being has done is possible for you. It’s evidence of what you can do because they’re just a human that has their own fears and insecurities and imposter syndrome. I mean, I still have it like in high school. I still feel like I’m just like I have the same issues that I had in high school.

 

But now it’s with like people in my industry, right? So, I’m like, oh, this person who’s also an author, like, who am I? And then I think, I’ll meet them, they’re like, oh, you’re like Kamal Ravikant, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It. Actually, I was doing a tour promoting The Miracle Equation, my book, and speaking of James Altucher, he was the last stop on my tour. I went up to New York and I went into his studio. And this is a fun story. I haven’t told this much.

 

So, I’m a huge fan of Kamal Ravikant. If you don’t know his book, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It, one of my favorites. So, I walk into James’s studio, and his studio is in a comedy club that he performs at. And I walk in and I see this guy, and I think that he’s James’s producer, I just assume he’s James’s producer. And I walk up, and he’s like, Hal Elrod? And I said, yeah. He goes, your book changed my life. I’m a huge fan of the Miracle Morning. And I’m like, oh. I’m like, thank you. That means a lot to me. Like every time I hear that, I always try to hear it with fresh ears, like I’ve never heard it before. I really want to receive– this one human being has been impacted. I go, thank you so much, I go. So, I said, so you work with James? And he said, oh, no, no, no, I’m just visiting. I’m a friend. I said, oh. I said something like, what do you do or something, right? And he’s like, oh, I’m an author. I go, oh, what did you write? And he goes, well, the book I’m best known for is Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It.

 

And I go from thinking, I’m talking to James’s producer and really appreciating what he’s telling me to just being like– and then now, I’m like, starstruck, and I’m like, wait a minute, you’re– and it was funny. I remember, I literally, like, collapsed on the– I fell forward into a hug. I fell forward into a hug and I hugged him and my lips were like two inches from his ear. I’m like, your book changed my life.

 

Cathy Heller: That is an amazing story. And part of it is, we were talking about, you said before, if you’re listening, absorb this. If somebody else has done this, that’s evidence. And it’s interesting, this woman came to one of my live events and she raised her hand and she asked me, what would it take for her to feel more in the zone? She’s like, I’ve done meditations in the morning and I’ve done this and I’ve done that. And I seem to not be able to find this feeling of feeling good all the time. I kind of– I said, well, what would you love it to be? She’s like, even if 60% of the time, I felt lit up, I’d be so happy with that. And I said, whoa, hang on a second.

 

So, can you imagine you’re talking to a doctor and you said, I don’t mind being nauseous 40% of the time, or you know what? I might have a blaring headache 40% of the time, but could you help me feel physically great 60% of the time? No way would you do that. You wouldn’t be satisfied. We all know this, right? If for some reason, something’s like itchy or you have a back pain and it lasts a little while, you’re concerned. You’re like, I don’t expect to feel physically bad at all. My stomach hurt last night, it hurt two days ago. I don’t like that. I’m going to watch. I’m going to look at it. Okay.

 

What I’m saying when I say, you said, what’s the greatest thing holding you back? I said, I don’t think it’s possible. You don’t think it’s possible to feel good all the time and you don’t think it’s possible to be successful and you don’t think it’s possible to do something you love and get paid for it? But it’s interesting that you do believe it’s possible to feel physically good all the time and you’re upset if it’s anything but 100%, which you should be. It’s the paradigm.

 

If you shifted your paradigm and said, I don’t want anything less, this is my one life in this incarnation, with this body, with this car, and I want to feel awesome every day. Guess what? Every palm tree was designed to feel good all day. Every dolphin was designed to have the best day every day, and so was every person. We don’t believe that’s true. So, what we do is we allow so many awful thoughts to swirl, which kicks on our cortisol, which makes us feel awful, which gets us out of momentum, which gets us out of being creative. And we go, that’s fine. That’s just called being a grown-up. That’s just called adulting. No, it’s not.

 

There are people like Hal and myself who made a decision, and Hal’s was coming from a giant place of life or death, seeing those possibilities and saying, if I’m going to be here, God, and you’re going to let me be here, I’m going to love this thing. I’m going to appreciate it. But we know people who don’t have that level of stakes who still made a decision, some of them do the Miracle Morning, some of them do their version of Miracle Morning, but they do that morning thing and they don’t want to wait to feel good. They don’t want to leave it to chance. They don’t want their day to be hijacked. They say, this is my day. Every moment is as good as it gets. Right now, I could look outside and I could notice the 116 shades of green. I would feel wholeness. I would feel freedom. It’s where you turn your attention.

 

So, the first problem is you don’t even think it’s possible. You’ve been so conditioned by your Instagram feed and all the negativity on TV that you’re like, nobody’s actually enjoying this thing called life. That sucks. And that’s not really the way it was designed. So, I think the more we have these conversations, people start feeling into hang on a minute, maybe I should stop beating the drum of all the evidence why life isn’t really designed for me. How could I reapproach this gorgeous gift called my life? And what would actually make it feel exciting?

 

And I think, to go back to where we started, in a sense, I think our greatest need is to feel like we contributed to someone else’s life. I think we all came here with an assignment to make the world more whole. And I think it’s interesting actually, that we value things that are rare, like gold and diamonds, but there’s nothing more rare than a human being because you have a different fingerprint.

 

And if you think of evolution, we don’t have webbing between our feet anymore, like there is no scientific reason that everyone would have a different fingerprint unless it’s a wink from God that you make a different imprint. And that will be missing without you. You’re needed, you’re needed. People don’t recognize how when you tell a story, you’re speaking to someone who needed to hear that story to feel less alone. And so, even if you think it’s like a small thing, it’s a giant thing.

 

I have a friend who has interviewed 2,000 people who had near-death experiences. I know you had that. And she said that everybody had the same timeline, the same events, even with people who, like these people had a translator because they lived in China, these people lived in Brazil, it didn’t matter where they lived, it didn’t matter their religion, and she said everybody, if they were gone a certain amount of time, it always was different how it happened but some sort of like a replay of some moments or something from their life which was insane that that was like a part of what she saw. And she said, it’s these insignificant things, things that you don’t even think like mattered.

 

One person told her it was a woman. She said she hit her head on a diving board. She died and she told everybody that she had this memory of something that happened where she was running late for a meeting and she was in a mall. She stopped there to get a black tank top because she realized that her other tank top she had spilled something on it. And in the mall was a four-year-old kid crying, he couldn’t find his mother, and she was late for the meeting and she decided to stop and help him find his mom. She totally forgot about it.

 

Twenty years later, she hits her head on a diving board. She wakes up thinking about this kid. She realized, oh, my God, that had major significance, like, that one act. I think we are here to do those things all day every day. And there’s no end to how much creativity. And really, the fun part is, like, there’s no end to how much abundance we can generate, abundance and learning, creativity, wealth, charity, like you get to become a conduit for all of that. You become a lightning rod or radio for as much love, as much creativity, as much money to flow through you. And what could you do with it? How much more resources could you be a custodian of? It’s just exciting.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah, well, I like that that’s what you do, the podcast, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, the book, Don’t Keep Your Day Job. By the way, which came first? The podcast or the book?

 

Cathy Heller: The podcast. And then I got a book deal after that. And my new book doesn’t come out until next August. You know how they do that? You turn it in, they’re like seeing you, you’re like, what?

 

Hal Elrod: Totally. Yeah, it’s a long, drawn-out process. But what I love about that is when I’m putting together all the pieces and talking to you, it’s like you’ve found purpose in helping people find work that they love. Quit their job, they hate their day job, and find a sense of purpose by contributing to other people, and so, fantastic. Oh, we got a few more minutes left. What else? Anything else that you feel compelled?

 

Cathy Heller: Yeah. I mean, one thing that’s fun, I do think people find this helpful. I looked at the people that I interviewed, and when I wrote the book, I said, could I put something together that would be helpful for people? And I realized I could put all these people into five categories of passions, of assignments because I do think the opposite of depression isn’t happiness but purpose. And so, the reason I like to teach people how to create a business is because it keeps them in their purpose all the time because if you get paid to do work that you love, it’s not a job, it’s not even work, then you just keep getting to do what you love all the time.

 

So, there are five things you can do. You can either make something, like you make doughnuts or you write music. You can teach something. You can teach someone how to take photography pictures. You can teach someone how to make doughnuts. You can teach someone how to write music. You can curate something. You can say, I don’t want to take the pictures and I don’t want to teach on how to take pictures, but I want to curate an evening of women photographers. Curate it, right?

 

Hal Elrod: Bringing people together.

 

Cathy Heller: You can investigate things. You could get paid nowadays to go and be curious. Like Gretchen Rubin is curious about happiness, and Malcolm Gladwell is curious about a lot of different things that happen in society. People think he’s a psychologist. This is a curious guy pulling together research, right? So, you could create podcasts, blogs, events, right? So, you can make something, teach something. You can do a service for somebody. You could say, I really am good at organizing. I really am good at putting up events and parties.

 

When you start to think of that, you start asking yourself like, which one of those feels like what I might want to lean into? And then what I like to say is just start because it’s not really important. Your self is going to keep finding you the most aligned thing anyway. And a good story example of this, this guy, Greg Franklin, who reached out to me. He was listening to the podcast. He’s 48, three kids. He lived in Missouri and he wrote in and said, like, I never even thought about happiness. I just thought about getting a job and health care.

 

So, he worked at a factory that made dog food, and his job for eight years was standing in front of a machine that made plastic bags for dog food. I said to him, this is a movie, like this should be a movie because this is– I can see John C. Reilly playing this part like, this is insane. It’s so– I couldn’t make this up.

 

So, we’re conversing through the podcast. He’s DMing me. I’m DMing him back. He starts, one day, he says, I decided to just pick something. So, I saw an ad for a cheesecake recipe. So, I made a cheesecake. He tells me it was burnt because I didn’t have a cheesecloth. And I realized, no, that actually is something you need. He said the next day, he made two cheesecakes with the cheesecloth, and it was good. But the second one, his family with his three kids, they didn’t want to eat another cheesecake. So, his wife said, why don’t you bring it down to the fire station? Little town in Missouri. Bring it to the fire station. They liked it.

 

They call him a week later, hey, one of our sergeants is having a birthday. Could you make 12 of those? He almost says no. And then he says, yes, I’ll figure it out. I’ll make you 12. So, he makes 12. And then he decides to get a freezer bag and go into town to the post office, to the hair salon, and just say to people, I have cheesecakes, they’re $5. Some people looked at him with like a side-eye. Some people said, okay, that’s cute. I’ll buy your cheesecake. What happens? He gets fired from the factory job, and you won’t believe this, but it’s recorded. We did a podcast with him. He says he’s on his way home. He calls his wife. He says, you’re going to kill me. I lost my job, which means that we don’t have health insurance. I’m going to find another factory job. And she says, no, you won’t because you won’t believe it. Do you know what Google told me? Today is National Cheesecake Day.

 

And that means you got fired because your three kids need to see you happy. You’re going to do something about this and you’re going to have the courage. And we’re opening up a cheesecake shop. And he said, we can’t afford it. And she said, we’re going to do it. So, they opened a 10×50 little shop and they made a vow that if they could make the rent, they would keep it open for three months. They opened the store, and the first day, they made three times the rent in day one.

 

Hal Elrod: Wow.

 

Cathy Heller: He wound up building a business. He wound up his wife was able to quit her job. This was right before a pandemic, where all of a sudden, people were home. And the only things that made them a little extra happy was trying things like this. He created a food truck. He opened more stores and he said, it doesn’t matter if it was cheesecake or anything. I wasn’t a good cheesecake maker. I just wanted something that felt creative and fun and different.

 

And now, he’s gone from cheese– his shop is called The Cheesecake Ninja, but he now does cheesecakes and these big giant cookies that are the size of like a cake. And he’s just having a blast. And his three kids who are in their teenage years see a father who likes his day.

 

So, I say to you, there’s definitely something available. If you’re saying at the end of the day, I think there’s more passion in me and I’m not feeling it, look again, try something, iterate because you’d be surprised when you start to ask a better question, and just start to get into messy action, your whole life will change.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah. And you figure it out along the way. He works in a factory. It doesn’t sound like he didn’t know how to start a business. He didn’t know how to grow a business. He didn’t know how to run a business, but he figured it out along the way. And you have to take that first step and lean into it. Cathy, you’re lovely.

 

Cathy Heller: Thanks. This is so much fun.

 

Hal Elrod: Everybody listening, the podcast is Don’t Keep Your Day Job, the book is Don’t Keep Your Day Job. Cathy Heller is her name. She is in front of me. She’s my guest. Yeah, Cathy, we definitely have to do more together. I love and appreciate you. And it was just love at first sight. And literally, I think I told you and I was like, oh, this might be too forward, but I was telling you after we recorded our podcast, I’m like, I fell in love with you, like I love you. So, it’s meant to be that we connected.

 

Cathy Heller: You are love. That’s the thing. I think that’s the last thing I want to say too is because people are like sometimes, I want to make a lot of money or I want a better relationship, and it’s like, Wayne Dyer, I think, said, we don’t get what we want, we get what we are.

 

Hal Elrod: Yes.

 

Cathy Heller: And I used to be a musician full time and I used to write music for shows like Gray’s Anatomy and Pretty Little Liars. And for 10 years, I wrote songs. And I can tell you that if you took two guitars and you put them on the table next to each other and you plucked the C string on this guitar, the C string on the other guitar vibrates because there’s something called resonance. Like we get back what we put out.

 

Hal Elrod: Totally.

 

Cathy Heller: And so, when you’re like, I love you, it’s like you’re a magnet for love. You are love. So, as soon as somebody is willing to receive it and has an open heart, you love each other. It’s like, how many people in your life do you know who’ve been on dating apps and done all the things and they look great and their bodies amazing and they work out and they just can’t seem to find it, and then there are other people who walk down the street and everyone’s like, who is that girl? Oh, my God. It’s like, she’s in wholeness, right? She’s in resonance. She gets it back.

 

And it’s the same thing with abundance. Like when you start to appreciate the 16 shades of green on the tree outside your window and you see the abundance in your kids and in your life and in the people and in the spices and inside of you, how endless your soul goes, how much bigger it is, you can’t help it. You become a match for that on every level. So, I totally get it. I loved you the second I was in your orbit, and I so appreciate getting to have this conversation. Thank you so much for having me on. It was so much fun.

 

Hal Elrod: Yeah, we’ll definitely be doing this again. Goal achievers and members of the Miracle Morning Community, you know I love you. I tell you every week. I mean it, very much. I love you. I hope you’re well. And I will talk to you next week.