[INTRODUCTION]

Hal Elrod: My guest today is Aaron Abke, someone who I discovered a little over a year ago, and I’ve been binge watching his YouTube videos ever since. In fact, he has over 22 million views on his YouTube videos because his message resonates with people. Aaron is a spiritual teacher. He’s a thought leader and is the author of this book right here that I just finished reading cover to cover this morning, The Three Beliefs of Ego: A Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom. In fact, if you look, I don’t know if you can tell from there, but I’ve dogeared almost every other page of this book. It’s A Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom and it really does teach you how to go from suffering mentally, emotionally, internally, and even spiritually to true inner freedom.

Aaron is known for offering a fresh perspective on self-realization, religion, and spirituality. His online academy for conscious expansion is called 4D University, has over 10,000 members. Needless to say, people resonate with his message. Aaron’s passion and purpose is to awaken humanity to the awareness of our oneness with God and with each other. I think you’ll love this conversation, and I’m just going to let you know, we start with talking about The Three Beliefs of Ego. Then Aaron goes really deep into theology. He has a bachelor’s in theology, a master’s in biblical studies, and he’s able to bring you a perspective on religion that very few people are able to. He’s a son of a pastor. And then, of course, we bring it back to how to end your suffering and achieve your freedom. Enjoy this conversation with Aaron Abke.

[INTERVIEW]

Hal Elrod: Aaron Abke, brother, hey, it is so good to see you.

Aaron Abke: Hal, great to finally connect with you, man. We’ve been in each other’s spheres for a while. Here we are.

Hal Elrod: And then we have a mutual friend who’s a new friend for me longer. When did you and Kyle Cease meet?

Aaron Abke: Oh, gosh, like four or five years ago probably.

Hal Elrod: Oh, that long. Okay.

Aaron Abke: Yeah, yeah. Good friend.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, it was so wild. Kyle, I was literally looking at his website a few weeks ago, and like three days, we were looking at his website and I’m just learning from him and then three days later, I get the message from him and then find out he knows you and…

Aaron Abke: Dude, when I went to his house the other day, you were on the phone with him. I was like, oh, Hal, I’m doing a his pod in a few weeks.

Hal Elrod: That’s funny. Here’s what I want to get into, man. So, this, your book, Three Beliefs of Ego, you just saw it. This is the most dogeared book, maybe, like look at that. It’s like every third page.

Aaron Abke: Every other page, man.

Hal Elrod: So, The Three Beliefs of Ego: A Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom, here’s where I want to start. Oh, I want to start by standing the book up.

Aaron Abke: I’ll help you out.

Hal Elrod: Can you do that? All right. So, you are known as a spiritual teacher, and ego is an interesting, it’s a very loaded word. I think a lot of people misinterpret it with arrogant. Oh, that person’s egotistical, they’re arrogant, right? Let’s start with defining, what is ego? How would you describe it? Why should we care? Why is it relevant? Why should we thinking about it?

Aaron Abke: Yeah. Well, I think the big thing I try to do in the book is to redefine ego in a more helpful way because there’s a lot of misguided definitions that get thrown around, and some of them are more helpful than others, but the one that is most commonly heard is the ego is your sense of self. You can’t live without your ego and the whole thing. And in the book, I say this is a close definition, but we need to add one extra word in there to make it perfectly succinct, which is the word false. Ego is not your sense of self. The ego is your false sense of self, which is why it can be transcended. Its influence can be transcended, right? So, the definition I give in the book, I actually give three different definitions because I don’t think there’s any one way to completely encompass the ego.

Hal Elrod: Sure. Words are just words, yeah.

Aaron Abke: Now, you’d say, it’s just such a loaded term and idea, but the first and I think best definition in the book is the ego is the mental activity of identifying with form. So, the big misnomer I’m trying to dispel with this definition is that the ego is not a noun, but it’s a verb. So, it’s like, a lot of times, you’ll hear people say you need to befriend your ego or kill your ego. But you can’t befriend or kill a verb, right? A verb is an action. You either do it or you don’t do it, or you’re aware of it or you’re not aware of it. But killing it or befriending it is not in the picture, right? So, you can’t kill or befriend your shadow, in the same way that you can’t kill or befriend the ego. It’s a reflection of ignorance, right? It’s just your mind’s attempt to know what it is by identifying with form. So, it’s an activity, a mental activity to become aware of, is what it is.

Hal Elrod: And why is it problematic?

Aaron Abke: It’s problematic because it creates all of our suffering.

Hal Elrod: Thus, the subtitle of your book, A Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom. And in the book, you said, to be human is to suffer. I think that’s really a Buddhist, right, kind of idea.

Aaron Abke: Basically, yeah.

Hal Elrod: Unpack that. Elaborate on that.

Aaron Abke: Yeah, I mean, suffering is an inescapable consequence of being a human being because humans, we could get into deep metaphysics on this if you want, but the basic idea is this realm we’re in, the human realm. Earth planet is meant to be a planet of ignorance and dreaming, so to speak, of waking up and remembering who we are. So, when our souls come here, we don’t remember who we are, what the universe is, our connection to source or one another. We just kind of start from scratch, right? And so, the ego is the mind’s attempt to fill in all those gaps of who am I, what am I here for, why does the universe exist, is there life after death? And the ego tries to come up with its own answers, and in order to come up with answers, you need an identity first. Like, who’s the me? Who’s the I? Who’s the self that wants to know these things? And that’s your reference frame for everything, right? How you think about yourself and perceive yourself.

So, the reason the ego causes suffering is because it begins with this belief, the first belief, I am lacking. I am insufficient in some way, and so I need to fulfill my lack with outcomes and pleasurable things in the world, right? My happiness is out there somewhere because it’s not in here. And then that’s the second belief. My happiness is out there. And then the third belief is I’m in control. I’m the doer of action. I’m the one who makes life happen. I’m an isolated agent in this universe, right? So, the ego does not perceive the interconnectedness of all things. And so, in this endless rat race or wild goose chase to fulfill myself with outcomes, all these attachments the ego creates is what leads to our suffering because there is no happiness outside of us. It’s only within us. And so, we got to turn within to find it. And the ego is predicated on always turning our tension outside.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, once I do blank, then I shall be happy. You call it no cause happiness, I think. You have it a couple different names.

Aaron Abke: No reason happiness.

Hal Elrod: No reason happiness, uncause happiness. All right, so let’s unpack these beliefs just you laid them out there. So, the first one being a belief in lack. And therefore, we have to do things, achieve things, get other people to love us so that we can feel complete, right? So, is the belief I am not enough, is that another kind of lack?

Aaron Abke: Yeah.

Hal Elrod: Okay. Second belief, tell me again.

Aaron Abke: I call it, you could just summarize it as attachment. I also call it outcome happiness versus no reason happiness, right? Outcome happiness is reason-based happiness. I’ll be happy when. If I could only get XYZ, then I’ll truly be happy. These are deeply subconscious beliefs that run all human programming, right? Now, the third beliefs were actually I want to discuss this with you because it’s counter to one thing that I teach. So, you state the belief again. So, I just call it the belief in control. I am in control. I’m the doer of actions. So, you really…

Hal Elrod: In fact, I just listened to an episode of you and Kyle did a podcast on the Aaron Abke Podcast on Effort Doesn’t Work, I think it was titled, right? So, I teach this thing called the Miracle Equation, and its extraordinary effort combined with unwavering faith is what creates miracles in our life or what co-creates, right? And I’m really wanting to reconcile and understand your perspective here, which is, so effort doesn’t work anymore, whereas I’m going, well, no, no, no. You’ve got to put forth the extraordinary effort, and then God kind of meets you halfway. So, I’d love for you to unpack this idea of this third belief. And I know you talk about this idea of personal doership that we need to kind of get away from. So, unpack that, and I’d love to go back and forth.

Aaron Abke: Yeah, yeah. These are the juicy topics, man, that we could spend hours and hours talking about, free will and all this stuff. But first of all, like with what you’re teaching and what I’m teaching, we’re kind of talking about different things. Or the podcast with Kyle, Effort Doesn’t Work Anymore, that title was kind of predicated towards effort to improve yourself spiritually, to grow. Like I got to make my spiritual growth happen.

Hal Elrod: It’s a different context.

Aaron Abke: Different context.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, I got it.

Aaron Abke: But the deeper metaphysics of it is non-doership means, I think it’s important to know what we mean when we say I’m not the doer because a lot of people, even the ego in our minds likes to straw man spiritual truths so that when it hears them, it goes, oh, that’s ridiculous. If I’m not the doer, you’re saying I should just stay home all day and drool and stare at the wall and do nothing. It’s like, no, of course, that’s not what I’m saying. What we’re saying is there is a deeply embedded subconscious belief that I am truly an isolated actor in the universe, right? And which means I’m not aware of the constant interconnectedness of all things so the way that I give these kind of requalifying statements, as you know, to help correct these beliefs over time and requalify them.

And the one for the third belief is I’m not in control. I am being lived. So, it’s like there’s a greater power flowing through me and inspiring my actions. And everything that happens is by greater forces than I, right? And then another way we could say it is I’m not in control. I am in cooperation. So, it’s not as if we’re saying you are just a puppet on strings. You have no free will. I’m not in that camp, per se, and that’s a whole ‘nother podcast. But it’s more like you’ve been given a limited framework to exercise your free will. And in fact, it logically follows that all free will has to be expressed within some kind of container because it’s like, if you just had literally unbounded, infinite free will at all times, you’d be God, you wouldn’t be able to even do anything, right? You have to have some restriction to exercise that free will. So, it’s like a maze. If you’re looking down on the maze from an aerial view, you can see all the turns and the right way to go, but the person who’s in the maze can’t, right, from their perspective. So, would you say, does that person in that maze have free will?

Hal Elrod: It’s limited free will with constraints. I love that.

Aaron Abke: You got it, yeah.

Hal Elrod: Great visual analogy there.

Aaron Abke: That’s like a human lifetime, right? It’s like you’re in this maze of human existence. And so, it’s true to say that you have free will within that maze, yes. But it’s like, do you have free will to not be in the maze? No. You’re in the maze whether you like it or not. So, that’s the free will thing for me. So, control or personal doership is this concession of saying I am in a oneness kind of relationship with life, not a separation-based relationship. So, everything I do is inspired by forces and universal laws and other people so I can’t take any personal credit for anything.

I also use the analogy of a domino line. If I knock over a domino line and it goes around the room a million times, and then not final domino knocks over, the ego’s like the second to last domino that says I did it, I knocked over the last domino. And it’s unaware of the endless chain of cause and effect that led to that action. So, it’s kind of a humility check, right? Look, I’m in the flow of life. Life is living me. I’m one with it. And so, I should open my awareness to the deeper meanings and movements of life that’s happening rather than just saying, what do I want? How do I control this situation to my favor? I mean, that’s the restricted ego-based living that just leads to constant suffering.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, I love the other analogy you used. Right after the domino analogy in the book, you used the analogy of being on a sports team and scoring the winning goal when the team was ahead the whole time, right? And then being like, I won the game. The team was like, dude, we all won. This was a concerted effort, right?

Aaron Abke: It’s a team effort, dude.

Hal Elrod: A team effort, yeah. Yeah, and I look at like my life, so it’s so interesting for me and like my spiritual journey is still always learning, questioning, curiosity versus like, I got it figured out which religion very much is like, this is how it is, this is how it’s always been.

Aaron Abke: Here’s all the right answers. You’re good.

Hal Elrod: Don’t think for yourself.

Aaron Abke: You don’t need anything else now.

Hal Elrod: It’s funny, government and there’s actually a correlation there, but the point is, for me, there are so many things in my life that I did put forth extraordinary effort. I worked really, really, really hard. However, my timing, like, I tried to achieve a goal within a year or something. And it’s like, great example is actually, I tried to change one million lives one morning at a time with the Miracle Morning. And I put forth, I did everything in my power for a year, and it took, I was 987,000 copies short of my goal, right? So, I sold 13,000 out of the million and I was like, oh, God, what happened? I gave everything. And the message I got was, your timeline was off. Like, keep going. Keep going. And it took six years to finally reach there.

But here’s the point, if I would’ve given up after year one and gone, oh, I wasn’t able, my ego, right? I didn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. But I had faith in something greater than me and that I was to continue on this journey. And in year two, I met a person that led to an opportunity in year three that led to a relationship in year four that led like, right? And it’s only like Steve Jobs said, you can only connect the dots looking backward that I was like, oh. And when finally, I reached that million, I was like, oh, this is God’s perfect timing, right? Speak to that in terms of like us working towards things. Life isn’t the way we want it to be right now. Like, how do we reconcile that? How do we deal with not getting the results that we want or our ego wants and trusting the divine timing?

Aaron Abke: This is so great, man. Another great analogy we could use here is the chess analogy. Imagine, whatever piece on the checkboard you use to eventually checkmate the opponent, imagine that chess piece is perspective. Let’s say it’s a pawn or something, right? And that pawn has played this whole game and it ends up checkmating the opponent and winning. And that pawn is like, I’m amazing. Look at what I just did. I just beat the whole game. And I’m just a pawn. Yeah, and you’re just literally a pawn for a higher mind that’s just using you. So, like you said, like then year two, I met this person, and then year three they introduced me to this network. And then this network led me to that person. It’s like you were God’s chess piece, just being moved around the board.

So, there was another analogy coming to me, I’m trying to think of it, that I use in the book. Oh, another way we can understand this whole concept, I’m not the doer, is you say, well, what do you mean, Aaron? Of course, I’m the doer. I can do whatever I want. I want to pick up this glass of water and drink it. Look, I just did it. I just disproved your whole theory.

Hal Elrod: There you go, okay.

Aaron Abke: So, we can say, yes, you picked up the glass of water and drank it, but how are you digesting the water molecules and sending them into your cells and mitochondria? How are you breathing? How are you thinking? You’re like, oh, no idea. How are you pushing blood through your veins? How do you do any of this stuff? Oh, you have no idea how you do anything that constitutes your physical life.

Hal Elrod: Being alive. Yeah, that’s pretty profound.

Aaron Abke: So, it doesn’t sound like you’re really in control of all that much. So, it’s more like you’re in a cooperative effort with life, right? This is the only premise that makes sense logically when you really investigate it. These three beliefs of the ego, by the way, they only go on in our mind and dominate our thinking patterns because we don’t investigate them and really like dice them down and contemplate them and pull them apart and think about them. And the more you do that with any idea, like any limiting idea, you should just keep contemplating it from every angle you can, right, until the idea just kind of disappears for you, it means nothing anymore. But if you stay in one perspective of any idea or belief you have, it will stay entrenched in your mind forever because you have to bring in other perspectives to…

Hal Elrod: To support.

Aaron Abke: Yeah. To take the energy out of that belief, such as I’m unworthy of love, no one loves me, I’ll never succeed, any of these kind of beliefs. You got to take that belief and really investigate it from many, many different angles, like a good philosopher would, right? And then you suck the juice out of it because the ego stories can’t survive unless its premises are being accepted. So, by the time you’re looking at a belief from many perspectives, you’re already kind of not accepting the perspective it wants you to have, right? This is what religion does.

Religion says, here’s the right things to believe, here’s all your certainties, do not question these. And the second you start asking your pastor some questions, you start bringing in some other perspectives. What happens? You get attacked. You get…

Hal Elrod: Don’t ostracize. Don’t think for yourself. Listen to what we said. We told you how to think, right?

Aaron Abke: Yes. That is a perfect identical mirror to the ego. Ego’s like a big religion in our brain. It doesn’t want us to believe anything else but what it believes.

Hal Elrod: And also, you wonder, like that actually, this is a great segue, but in terms of how much ego created the world’s religions, right?

Aaron Abke: Exactly.

Hal Elrod: 3,000 manmade religions, roughly 3,000, give or take.

Aaron Abke: Something like that.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. So, it’s interesting. So, let’s, actually, this is a great segue into, I would love, for those that don’t know your work, to go over your background. And so let me just start with what I know, which is, you were a pastor’s kid, right? Your grandfather and father were both pastors. and that was your dream. And at 22, you fulfilled that, you became a pastor. And within, like, was it a year that you quit?

Aaron Abke: It was within like, yeah, I was doing about nine months, and then I gave them three more months to phase me out because I felt bad that I just got hired and I quit.

Hal Elrod: Okay. So, why did you quit? And I think you even left religion, like, talk about this.

Aaron Abke: Yeah, yeah. Well, I just had a huge awakening. Like most people do out of religion, I was a super devout Christian. Loved Jesus, like a truly heartfelt Christian. But that’s actually why I couldn’t stay a Christian for very long because the dogmas and the certainties were not satisfying me as I got into my early 20s and I had a lot of questions that I couldn’t find good answers for. And in my teenage years, I remember being like 15 and reading the story of Jonah and reading how at the very end of the book, it’s like this weird ending where God’s like, come on, Jonah. Shouldn’t I spare these people rather than destroy them when they have all this great livestock? And that’s how the book ends.

All this great livestock, I was like, whoa, the infinite omnipotent Lord of the universe cares about some peasants’ livestock. Like that’s a good reason not to slaughter them or something, like this doesn’t feel like something God would say. This feels like something an ancient human mind would think about God and project. But I’m like, well, I’m 15 years old, I don’t know anything. They’re smarter people than me that are Christians. I bet they have great answers.

Hal Elrod: And I trust these adults.

Aaron Abke: And I trust them.

Hal Elrod: That have taught me all the things that they’ve taught me, right?

Aaron Abke: Yes. So, that’s how I dismissed the cognitive dissonance for a while. But as I got into my 20s and started to ask some of these questions, I could not find anyone to give me a satisfying answer. And in fact, every answer I got would make it way worse. Like, oh, there’s some big red flags here based on these answers. And the first thing I deconstructed from was the rapture. The whole idea of the second coming and we’re going to be sucked in into the air and our clothes will be left and all this crap. And I was like, this is just so cartoonishly weird. That can’t be the universe I’m living in.

And then, from there, it was like hell was next. And so, by the time I’m a full-time worship pastor at this church called Crossroads Bible Church in San Jose, I’m like, I don’t believe half the stuff I’m singing in these songs, like, I can’t handle this poverty consciousness. I’m unworthy for such a worm as I, Lord. I’m like, this isn’t the God I know. And what really came to a head was when there’s three different kind of big instances that happened, but the first one was a woman went on stage to give an offering testimony and this man was standing behind her. And I’m with my scripture brain, I’m like, oh, please don’t be what I think this is, which is this kind of very fundamentalist Christian belief that comes from some of Paul’s writings that women are like inferior to men. They should not speak in church. It’s a shame for a woman to speak in church. If she does speak, she should have her head covered. And the way that modern Christian churches replicate the covering their head thing, because it’s kind of outdated, is the husband has to cover the wife standing behind her. So, like she can only speak on stage if her husband’s right behind her. He was like ready to correct her at a moment’s notice.

Hal Elrod: And these seem more like man’s opinions and beliefs as opposed to God’s opinions and beliefs, right?

Aaron Abke: Yes, 100%.

Hal Elrod: Especially based on the time, based on…

Aaron Abke: Right. Like this is clearly an ancient world, like this is coming from an ancient world. But I had just gotten married, I was 23, my wife was 20, and sure enough, they go sit down together and they’re husband and wife, and I’m like, oh, no. Like I’m working at a church that’s super dogmatic. And my wife was pissed. We got home, and she was like, cussing up a storm. Like, what the f*ck are these people that think women are inferior to men? It’s okay, babe. We’ll find answers. And I’m thinking, I’ll find, I’ll do what all good Christians do, and they’ve come up with a contradiction in scripture is I’ll just find some other scripture I can use to refute that one with and push it out of the picture.

So, I’m looking through Paul to try to find good things he says about women to redeem his bad things. And I can’t find anything. And I’m like, oh, man, like this really? He really was a misogynist. And then I’m starting to see other things in Paul’s writings. And I’m like all this end times, Jesus is coming back, we’re going to be sucked into the air and transformed into spiritual bodies at the trumpet sound, this is happening in my lifetime. Those of you reading this will all see this take place.

Hal Elrod: And he says it’s in his lifetime.

Aaron Abke: Oh, yes, first Thessalonians 4. Paul is very explicit. There’s no question about this in scholarship. Paul believed that Jesus was coming back in his lifetime. And that in the same way that Jesus was resurrected and transformed from a physical body into a spiritual body, Paul did not believe in a physical resurrection to something most people don’t know. He believed Jesus was transformed into a new genus of kind of super being or spiritual being, that God was going to do to the whole world who were on the side of his kingdom coming, right? The good side. And so, he believed that Jesus was the first born among many, the second Adam, right? Returning us back to the Edenic state that Adam and Eve lost when they fell, this kind of eternal, infinite spiritual body that lives forever.

So, Paul said, just as Jesus was resurrected and transformed, that’s going to happen to all of us listening to this. And he literally went so far as to say, look, if you’re a slave, don’t even worry about getting free. If you’re trying to find a new job or whatever, don’t worry about it. If you’re married, live like you’re not married because any day now, any second now, Jesus is coming back. We’re going to be caught up into the air. So, I’m seeing all this stuff going. That’s a definite false prophecy.

Hal Elrod: Which Bible verse did you say that was?

Aaron Abke: That’s in first Thessalonians 4, Chapter 4. I think 4:17.

Hal Elrod: Real quick, just for anyone listening and they’re like, who is this? What’s this guy actually? Where is he talking from? What’s your background in terms of, what’d you go to school for? And I think you’re still going to school for.

Aaron Abke: Yeah, I went to Oral Roberts University in Tulsa. And I got a double bachelor’s. I’d been to another college and gotten a bunch of credits in theology, and then I transferred to ORU. And so, I just said, you know what? I almost have a theology degree already. Let me just take these next three classes, and then I’m also going to get a music bachelor’s degree. So, I went to college for five years and I got a double bachelor’s in music and theology to be a worship pastor. And then now, I’m going back to college, taking my master’s in biblical studies.

Hal Elrod: Okay, got it. Yeah, that was the piece that I wanted because it’s not flippant that you’re just throwing out vague ideas, but you’re, yeah.

Aaron Abke: No, no. Pretty much everything I share just comes from secular scholarship. Like, I don’t share anything that most scholars would be like surprised at. Most of the things I share, just consensus opinions and scholarship. But there’s a giant gulf between Christian scholars and secular modern scholars who are not looking to impose a religious framework on the Bible. They come to very opposite conclusions on almost everything. So, when Christians hear me say like, there are no scholars who think that Paul wrote first or second Timothy, for example, they’ll be like, what do you mean? Every scholar thinks he wrote it. It’s like, Christian scholars say that he did, right? Secular scholars and academics, there’s nobody who thinks that. It’s obvious forgery from the second century.

Hal Elrod: Oh, okay. Now, so my understanding is that you’ve said you left Christianity to follow Christ, which sounds conflicting. Can you expand on that?

Aaron Abke: Yeah. So, this is from this whole story, right, of deconstructing while I’m a pastor at a church. I’m reading Paul and I’m going false prophecies, misogyny, nonstop boasting. Like I’d never really read Paul for myself. And I encourage people who don’t believe me to do this. Go read through Galatians. Go read through Romans, first and second Corinthians. I mean, this guy just never stops talking about himself. He boasts, boasts, I boast, I boast, I boast. He uses the word boast 62 times in his seven letters.

And what’s funny is he’ll even say in second Corinthians 12:7, he says that basically, Jesus gave him a demon to keep him humble because of the greatness of his revelations. He says, in order to keep me from becoming conceited due to the greatness of my revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan. In the Greek, it’s Satanos Angelos. There’s no other way you could possibly say a demon than that in Greek. A messenger from Satan sent to torment me. And he says, three times I pleaded with the Lord to remove him from me, but he said, no, Paul, my grace is sufficient for you.

So, I’m like, okay, big problems here. Number one, Paul says Jesus gave him a demon essentially to keep him from being conceited, to humble him. It’s like where do we have any proof that Jesus would give people demons in the gospels? Jesus casts out demons from people. And Jesus actually says to the Pharisees, they say, aren’t we right in saying you have a demon? And he says, if Satan casts out Satan, his kingdom is divided. Satan will never cast out Satan. So, if the private Jesus, because this is Paul’s claim, Paul never met Jesus. Most people who go to church on Sundays don’t actually know this, right? Paul never met the living Jesus. The Jesus he claimed to meet was a sort of private Jesus he was meeting with in his visions he’s having. Yes.

And so, this private Jesus Paul’s talking to would not cast out a demon from him. So, it’s like, does that sound like Jesus to you? Jesus said a demon won’t cast out another demon. So, then he goes on to say all these other things that are very contraindicated to the Jesus we see in the gospels. For example, in Acts, it says, Jesus strikes him blind on the road to Damascus, right? The famous story. And it’s like, where do we have evidence that Jesus would strike somebody blind? Jesus opened the eyes of the blind. In fact, when John the Baptist came to him to say, he sent his messenger saying, Jesus, are you the one, the Messiah that we’re expecting? Or should we look for another? And Jesus says to them, go and tell John, the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, and the poor have the gospel preach to them. So, it’s like Jesus made, opening the eyes of the blind. One of the criteria of knowing, this is how you know I’m the Messiah. I open the eyes of the blind.

So, he strikes Paul blind and gives Paul a demon. It’s like this is not adding up. And then I start looking at everything Paul teaches about salvation, and I’m like, Paul never quotes any of Jesus’s teachings. He never makes any commentary on, you know, the Lord taught this. And so, here’s what I think about it. It’s just my gospel, my gospel, my gospel. He says it four different times. And it’s all this confess and believe, and we’re going to get sucked out of here. It’s very like Hellenistic dualism. And Paul was a diaspora Jew from the Mediterranean region. He was not a Hebrew Palestinian Jew like Jesus and his disciples. So, he had this very Greco-Roman Hellenistic way of thinking, steeped in stoicism and Platonism. And you see it woven all through Paul’s writings. It’s this very Greek way of seeing Jesus, right? Jesus is kind of a demigod who comes down from heaven like Apollo and Perseus and Dionysus. He does miracles and he ascends back to heaven. Sometimes they die and they’re resurrected.

But it’s the same motif in the Greco-Roman world of true divine beings are pre-existent demigods, sons of God or something. They come down, they hang out with us for a while. They blow our minds with their miracles and they go back to heaven. That’s how we know they’re not one of us, right? So, they give this unique specialness to these beings. And the Nazarene Hebrew disciples of Jesus would’ve thought that was absolute blasphemy to say that a man can be God. And nowhere in Jesus’ mouth, Christians would argue otherwise, but this topic is case closed for me. There’s nowhere Jesus even hints at the idea that he’s God. And Jesus never says anything Paul says about salvation. Like, you have to confess me as Lord and Savior or believe in my death and resurrection. Jesus never tells anybody, they have to confess him as Lord.

Hal Elrod: Now, I want to, real quick, push back on that, and that– and I wouldn’t say pushback, but just there’s that passage in the Bible where Jesus says, and I’ll probably misquote it, but something along the lines of, the only way to God is through me, something along…

Aaron Abke: John 14:6, I’m the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, speak to that.

Aaron Abke: So, if we just grant that John is a legitimate historical, kind of rendering of Jesus’s teachings, I can argue for that side as well, and again, in secular scholarship, there’s no scholars who think John is this kind of historically accurate account of Jesus. There’s something in scholarship called the synoptic problem, which is that Mark, Matthew, and Luke are very different. The Jesus depicted in the synoptics is very different than the Jesus and John. And John is much later. So, it’s clearly this kind of late first century, maybe early second century attempt to upgrade the Christology of Jesus. Now, that doesn’t mean there’s nothing historical in it. It just means the depiction of Jesus is more mythology than memory. It’s the way that this community, this kind of Johannine community in Ephesus came to see Jesus as this more Greco-Roman figure.

Now, I think some of these sayings we see, I think there’s no question Jesus would’ve never said these things in public. He would’ve been executed the next day if he had said these things. And then when you study the first century context, you’re like, oh, that’s why Mark makes a lot more sense than John. And Mark, Jesus is like, shh, don’t tell anybody who I am. People are like, you’re the Messiah. He doesn’t want anyone to know. He heals people, he’s like, don’t tell anyone I just healed you, right? Because in the world he lived in, King Herod was brooding and looking for the next Davidic Messiah that he could kill him before he would galvanize the Jews and start this whole revolt.

King Herod was terrified because he wasn’t a real Jew, like Jesus was, that his legitimacy was already questioned by the Jewish people. So, he knew, like if a Davidic heir rises up and says, I’m the Messiah, he will galvanize these people and we’re going to have a whole ‘nother war with the Jews. And they didn’t want any more wars with the Jews. So, he was like, any peep I hear of someone who might be the Messiah, I’m chopping their heads off. And what does he do to John the Baptist, who some people thought was the Messiah? Hacked his head off immediately. Som Jesus takes over for John and he’s like, okay, I’m going to learn from John’s mistake. Don’t tell anybody I’m the Messiah. Keep it quiet. Keep it between us. So, there’s no way he would’ve gone around being like, I’m the way, the truth, and the life.

But I think those phrases that we see in John may very well come potentially from private teachings of Jesus to his disciples because his inner circle, if you will. Because even in the gospels, it says, to those who are on the outside, everything is spoken in parables because he had to shroud his teachings in story format so he wouldn’t be accused of heresy and get in trouble, right? But it says, but to his disciples, he taught them everything directly. I can’t remember which gospel that says that in, but it says he was teaching his disciples the legit straightforward teachings in private. And even in the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Thomas is the secret sayings of Jesus spoken to Didymus Judas Thomas. So, we have his public and his private teachings, kind of these two dichotomies, right? So, John may be some of the private teachings of Jesus that survived in earlier gospels, like the Egerton Gospel that John comes from. So, they may be historical, who knows?

Hal Elrod: Let me ask you this. For me, I wonder because the Bible’s been translated, right? And so, that alone, when it’s from one language to another, it creates not necessarily a perfect, translation. So, I’ve always wondered that passage, say it again, the only way, I’m the truth, the life…

Aaron Abke: I think it’s John 14:6, I want to say. I’m the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through me.

Hal Elrod: So, my questioning is, or just curiosity is, is it through me as in, could it be through what I’m teaching you, the way I’m telling you, that you have to go directly to God, that greater thing, right, that the kingdom of God is within? That to me is the most– I was at church last Sunday. I take my family to church every week. And largely because I grew up Catholic and that really instilled a really valuable moral compass for me and I want my kids to have that. Also a sense of love and safety. but the Kingdom of God is within you, and do you know which passage that is?

Aaron Abke: Luke 17:3.

Hal Elrod: Okay. I love that I can just throw out. AI can throw out a butchered quote.

Aaron Abke: I got your back.

Hal Elrod: You got me, yeah. So, that actually resonates as so true for me, and in prayer and in meditation, I’m like, oh, yeah, God is within me. And they literally, at church, the pastor this last week was like, God is separate from you. God is a separate being. You are to please. And it was like, that’s not what Jesus said. But yeah, and so it feels aligned where it’s like the Kingdom of God is within you and the only way to God is through me, through my teachings. It’s like we have no way of knowing, but that feels right to me.

Aaron Abke: Well, you’re spot on, brother. This is one of the kind of chief rebuttals when I say to a Christian friend, can you show me anywhere that Jesus said, you have to confess him as Lord and Savior and believe in his resurrection to be saved? And they’ll go to these passages in John, where Jesus says, believe on me, believe in me. John 3:16, whosoever believes in me will not perish but have everlasting life. And so, the question is, what is the word believe mean? Does believe mean exactly to them 2,000 years ago what it means to us today? Probably not.

So, let’s look at the Greek word pisteuo. It’s the present active tense of the verb believe. And there are no Greek scholars who would say that that word means exclusively to believe in an idea in your brain. It does not mean that. It means to trust in, to obey, to commit oneself to. So, it’s like to give your whole being over. It’s not about mentally believing in some concept. It literally means obey. So, like, a more accurate translation of John 3:16, again, pisteuo is the active present tense verb would be that whosoever continues obeying me will never perish but have everlasting life, that whosoever continues trusting in me will not perish. So, when Jesus is saying, believe in me, he’s saying obey me. And do we see that context in John? Oh, yeah, we do. All through the Gospel of John. John 14:15, if you love me, keep my commandments. John 14:21, the one who has my commandments and keeps them is the one that loves me. And why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?

Hal Elrod: I just read that yesterday.

Aaron Abke: Jesus actually rebukes his disciples in different parables and teachings numerous times in the synoptics for calling him, confessing him his Lord, but not keeping his greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself, and he says, look, you can call me Lord all you want, you can do signs and wonders in my name for all I care. If you do not love the least of these, you have no part in my Kingdom.

Hal Elrod: Right. And isn’t the modern Christianity kind of based on Paul’s teaching of no, no, no, it doesn’t matter what you do. You can do anything you want. You could rape, pillage, steal, kill, right? Be evil. As long as you confess to Jesus, you’re good. Free pass. Isn’t that kind of the premise?

Aaron Abke: They would say no. They’d say, oh, that’s a straw man. But if you really push them on it, they will say, yeah, it ultimately does come down to believing Jesus died for your sins and stuff, and your good works can’t save you. So, to say that, oh, Aaron, you’re teaching a workspace gospel. It’s this kind of straw man from Martin Luther. There is no reference in the Bible anywhere that says you can be saved by doing good works. There’s no concept in the Bible of if you do one evil work, if you sin once, you are worthy of eternal hell fire. God will never forgive you unless you have a blood sacrifice. Like that idea is nowhere in the Hebrew Bible.

All through the Hebrew Bible, it’s very clear, and Jesus echoes the same thing, repent and God forgives you. Genuinely turn your heart to God in humility, and you have pleased the heart of God. And Jesus tells parables about this. He teaches this directly, and he says, look, if you do not forgive your brother his trespasses, your heavenly Father will not forgive yours. Period. That’s a stipend, man. There’s no getting around that with other context. Well, but if you confess, then he will though. No, he didn’t say that. It’s like you always have to stuff words in the mouth of Jesus.

Hal Elrod: What I love about here listening to you is the depth of your knowledge and understanding, right? You’re not just speaking on vague concepts, (a) you grew up as a pastor’s son. You then got your bachelor’s to become a pastor. You then became a pastor, right? And so, it’s like your depth of understanding and wisdom. And actually, I want to talk about this, your spiritual awakening, 2017, I know Eckhart Tolle played a big part of it. He was a big part of mine, in my 20s, I read Eckhart Tolle and that really also– and then I noticed you quoted Ken Wilber in your book. I read Ken Wilber, Andrew Cohen, right? So, in my 20s, I really went down this. I wanted to understand what the world believed about religion. Not just my isolated Catholicism that I grew up in. I’m like, oh, once I learned, I’m like, oh, there’s thousands of religions. Well, they can’t. So, but mine says it’s right and…

Aaron Abke: Only one is right.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I’m like, either they’re all right or they’re all wrong. Or to me, they’re all human beings doing our best to try to make sense of something that is beyond language really, right? Like, we’re putting words to try to describe it. But like, if someone said, what is God? And you go, oh, it’s a father. So, like it’s a parent with kids. Like, explain.

Aaron Abke: Yeah, a male.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. So, if you really drill down, he keeps saying, okay, so what is that? But what is God? Is it energy? No one can describe. No one can describe other than something they heard. Well, I read in the Bible that it said this, or I read in the Quran that it said this, and you know. Like, but what is God? Like what does he look like? What does he smell like? And what does he sound like? And you go, oh, he’s beyond our human senses. Thus, our ability to fully comprehend what God is. Anyway, that was my riff.

Aaron Abke: Can I tap into that real quick?

Hal Elrod: Yeah, please, please.

Aaron Abke: Because you mentioned John, we brought up John 14:6, I am the way, the truth, and the life, right? So, one of the things that, because I did this my whole life, so I’m speaking from my own experience, one thing that religious people will do of all religions, not just Christianity, is they’re bringing a framework and a set of mental beliefs to the text, and then they’re enforcing it constantly on the text. This text must mean what I already believe it means. So, when they see a verse like I am, the way, the truth, and the life, they go, oh, see, if you don’t confess Jesus as Lord, you burn in hell. And I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, where in that verse did Jesus say to confess him verbally as Lord or that if you don’t, you will go to hell? Well, it’s implied. We all know. No, no, no, no. It’s not that simple.

And you look through other passages from Jesus and you’re like, oh, yeah, this actually contradicts what you said over there, right? So, we can’t just enforce our own framework onto the text and think we’re reading it honestly. So, what are some possible meanings of that verse, right? Well, in the book, I talk about what is God, what is the true self of us, and I use the divine name ego eimi or I am, right? And this is classic, Neo-Advaita, Hinduism, and Buddhism. This idea that what we are is the awareness itself, the way we know that we exist, that we are self-aware, that’s the divine presence within us and within all things. So, we can call it I am because that’s how we always know ourselves. You always know yourself as the first person in the present tense. Inarguable, right? You have never known yourself as the second or third person or in the past or future. You are always the first person in the present moment.

Hal Elrod: Everything else is just an illusion, is a thought, is our mind. Where does the, like, I am, God is the great I am, but also, to me, how would you decipher between I am, based on your ego, right? Tapping back into your book, Three Beliefs of Ego. I am based on ego and I am based on a higher truth, a higher version of yourself.

Aaron Abke: That’s a great question. The ego tries to rob our I am nature and attach it to forms. That’s why I said the ego is the mental activity of identifying with form. It says, I am this and that, and this and that. I’m a man. I’m Aaron. I’m 6-foot 2. I’m this many years old, on and on and on. And the truth is you’re just the I am. Everything else was added to you later. And you can always find an earlier version of yourself in your life where you weren’t a man yet. You weren’t six, whatever feet tall. You weren’t this many years old, so where you not you then or you still were. So, what was fundamentally the same? What is the thing about you that never changes or undergoes a state of change? And it’s that I am consciousness and awareness.

So, Jesus, if anything, is invoking the divine name. I am is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is not speaking as a person or as a body. This is a hugely misunderstood thing in Christian theology because they don’t have this non-dual framework that Jesus clearly said, hey, guys, if you want to be my disciple, first criteria, deny yourself. And then you can take up your cross and follow me. What do you mean, Jesus? How do we deny ourselves if we’re going to follow you? He clearly wasn’t asking us to deny our true self or the God nature in us. He was telling us to deny the false nature, the egoic nature, right?

So, if ego death was the first prerequisite Jesus gave his disciples, it stands to reason that Jesus probably had undergone an ego death already himself, right? Why would he require his disciples to do something he himself had not done? So, if he’s going around saying, hey, guys, deny yourself if you’re going to follow me, he probably had denied himself. So, he wasn’t speaking…

Hal Elrod: Leading by example.

Aaron Abke: Exactly, right?

Hal Elrod: Yeah, makes sense.

Aaron Abke: Like any good leader would. So, when Jesus is saying, I’m the way, the truth, and the life, he is not speaking as a person. He is not saying, I, the person, Jesus of Nazareth, am the way. He’s identified with the divine essence of the father within him. That’s why he says, I’m the father are one. If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the father. He had a complete oneness identity with God, and so it’s from that foundation he’s always speaking from when he makes these statements and understanding that makes all the difference in interpreting Jesus through John, right?

Hal Elrod: What you just said, I connected. So, I and the father are one. The Kingdom of God is within you, right? Like, if you draw a circle, right, like, interesting. So, Jesus, I and the Father are one and the Kingdom of God is within you, right? It creates this more of a personal connection that we– like, I love the analogy, and you weren’t the first one to use it, but you used it really well. I think Neale Donald Walsch has used it. But the ocean and God being the ocean, so to speak, and that we are all droplets of water in the ocean made of the exact same material, indistinguishable from one another based on the shape or the size of that droplet, right? And that helps for me to really understand it.

Aaron Abke: I’ll give you a better one too, that’s from the book is, the ray of sunlight analogy. This is how we can understand the frame of mind Jesus was speaking from. It’s like, how could Jesus possibly say, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father? We only can hear it as an ego, right? But imagine a ray of sunlight coming from the sun, that ray of sunlight could absolutely say, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the sun. I and the sun are one.

Hal Elrod: I love that.

Aaron Abke: But then Jesus also says, but my father is greater than I. I and my father are one, all power has been given to me, but my father is greater than I. It’s that whole being lived thing we talked about. Jesus understood this concept. Although I’m one with God, I don’t take personal credit for it. I always give all power to God. So, the ray of sunlight could also say, I and the sun are one, but the sun is greater than I. Also true, right? That’s what one this means. It means shared beingness, right? It doesn’t mean that there’s no uniqueness. We’re all unique expressions of God, but we are all from the same ontology or essence of God.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. One of the messages in your book around unity, that for me in 2020, I was like, God, what message should I be preaching right now, should I be bringing to my podcast listeners and in our community and this and that? And it was unity. It was like the world is becoming so divided right now. Right versus left. Massacre versus non-massacre. Vaxxer versus anti-vaxxer.

Aaron Abke: Israel/Palestine, Russia/Ukraine.

Hal Elrod: Oh, yeah. So divided and like my message was we all have far more in common as human/spiritual beings than we will ever have different. It doesn’t matter the color of your skin or where you were born, or what your beliefs are. And it’s interesting because all of the differences that divide us are all constructs of the ego, right? It’s, “I’ve decided that our way of thinking is right and your way of thinking is wrong.” It’s all ego. I want to circle back. I know, dude, we could talk all day, but I know we have limited time here. Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom, that’s the subtitle of the book. How do you define freedom? Before you answer this, I love the subtitle. I was thinking about this on the way here because it’s like you really talk about where people begin, which is, yeah, we all suffer. We struggle, right?

It’s part of being human. We struggle internally, and it’s all internal by the way, right? Because there are people that have transcended suffering, which I define as enlightenment, which is like, “Oh, I’m at peace with all things I can’t change, so therefore I do not suffer. I do not struggle anymore. Yes, I struggled. There are some challenges, but I’m completely at peace.” So, I want to hear how you would… I think suffering everybody gets, mental, emotional, physical, financial suffering, but it’s the guide to freedom. What’s the endpoint for readers of your book? How do you define freedom?

Aaron Abke: Yeah, that’s a great question, man. Well, it’s the crux of the book for sure. And I talk about, I begin the book with my own awakening experience, you mentioned, because I had this incredible two-week experience of enlightenment listening to an Eckhart Tolle lecture on the balcony of the Google Plex gym that I worked at.

Hal Elrod: Where you were a personal trainer.

Aaron Abke: Yeah. So, I mean, fancy all places to have a spiritual awakening. Google.

Hal Elrod: At Google.

Aaron Abke: The least expected one.

Hal Elrod: The least spiritual.

Aaron Abke: But that’s where it happened. And two weeks in that state and then came out of it 14 days to the day, and my ego started coming back online. And I talk about the whole story in the book, and it was just terrifying because I’m like, “No, no, no. I don’t want to go back to that hellish state of consciousness I was in before.” I was deeply suffering.

Hal Elrod: So, once you’ve been liberated, then you really realize how hellish it was, right?

Aaron Abke: Oh, yeah. Yeah, going to hell’s awful enough on its own, but once you’ve been to heaven for two weeks and then you go back to hell, it’s way worse. Trust me. But that experience gave me two huge gifts, which was, number one, a deep and abiding conviction that freedom from suffering is indeed possible, which I did not believe before, that, “Ah, that’s a pie in the sky. Hopeful wish,” you know? But after two whole weeks of not even a nanosecond of anything but peace and joy and love, how could I deny now? It’s maybe extremely difficult to get to that state of consciousness, but it is possible. And like that’s all I need is a glimmer of hope. So, conviction that it’s possible.

Number two, just an all-consuming desire to do anything, give up anything, lay down any treasure necessary to get back to that heavenly state of consciousness again. And I didn’t have that before either. I had a lot of attachments and things in the world that I was pursuing. So, those are the two ingredients for liberation to me, because suffering, when I use that term, I use it in the neo-invitus sense that it is the mind’s resistance to pain and challenge, not pain and challenge itself. Playing sports hurts, right? Like football or something. You’re going to get beat up and bruised. You might have to get stitches sometimes, but football players, they’re not suffering. They’re doing what they love. You know, it’s part of the game. They love it.

So, life can be like that, right, where every pain, every challenge, every pain point becomes something you’re grateful for, and you have a deep abiding trust that, “God, you’re going to work this out for my good. You’re going to teach me something powerful. You’re going to heal me in some way.” And you know that my Heavenly Father’s will for me is always good. And so, you go through the challenge or the pain with that groundedness. And Jesus said, “Build your house upon the solid rock, not upon the sand.” The solid rock is that deep surrender to God. And when we get to a place of full surrender, we can’t suffer anymore because we can’t resist anymore. So, we still experience pain and challenge in life, but it doesn’t cause suffering, meaning it doesn’t leave traces within us after the events are over.

If you’re going through a painful event, it’s going to be painful while you’re going through it. But when you get to the other side of it, there’s no more pain, and you can continue on in the present moment. What the ego does through its resistance is it creates stories and narratives and identities out of our pain and keeps telling them to us. And building the evidence for it.

Hal Elrod: Things from our childhood that we’re still suffering over because we’re resisting the reality from the past, wishing and wanting that it didn’t happen that creates a lack of control.

Aaron Abke: You got it. Yeah. That’s exactly it. So, that’s the sufferer’s guide to freedom is freedom from your mind’s resistance. And that’s the second definition of the ego, by the way, is the ego is the mind’s war against reality or the mind’s conflict with reality. Ego is the voice in our head that looks at what actually is and what is actually happening and says no in some way.

Hal Elrod: It’s fighting the flow of life or of God, right? That’s what you say, life is… How do you say living?

Aaron Abke: Yeah. Life is living you.

Hal Elrod: Life is living you, right?

Aaron Abke: Versus I’m living life. It’s like, no, life is living you, buddy.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. Well, I will say this. I went on Amazon. I finished your book this morning, and as we mentioned…

Aaron Abke: Nice. Perfect timing.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, exactly. I was like, “I got to get it done,” you know? Which, by the way, I pre-ordered the book like a year ago when it was announced, and then it kept getting pushed back, pushed back, pushed back. A couple of things I want to do. Number one is, I was on Amazon this morning. I don’t even know what I was looking for, but I looked at your book, and the very first review at the top says one of the most important spiritual books I’ve ever read. And so, that’s high praise. And so, for anyone watching this, I encourage you to get the book, The Three Beliefs of Ego: A Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom. You will be glad that you did. Is it available on audiobook yet?

Aaron Abke: Audiobook and Kindle, yeah.

Hal Elrod: Okay. Did you read it?

Aaron Abke: I recorded it.

Hal Elrod: Oh, you recorded it? Yeah. Okay, good.

Aaron Abke: It was fun. I didn’t do my first book. I didn’t record, and now I did.

Hal Elrod: It’s not easy, right?

Aaron Abke: Oh, it took like seven sessions of like three hours recording.

Hal Elrod: Oh, man. It’s a challenge. Yeah.

Aaron Abke: Your voice gets tired.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, totally. Where can people learn more from you? Because here’s the thing, it’s like, this was a drop in the ocean of Aaron Abke. So, where can people follow you, learn from you? I know you lead your 4D University. What’s the best way to follow up with Aaron Abke?

Aaron Abke: Yeah. It’s super simple. It’s just Aaron Abke on any platform, youtube.com/aaronabke, Instagram, aaronabke.com. If you type in the name, you’ll find me for sure.

Hal Elrod: And if you don’t know how to spell Aaron Abke, it’s A-A-R-O-N.

Aaron Abke: A-aron like a Key & Peele skit.

Hal Elrod: And then Abke, A-B-K-E. Well, Aaron, this is a pleasure, man, first of many conversations. Me and you and Kyle, we have to get together and just hang out, get some time together. Maybe get a bigger studio and do all three of us.

Aaron Abke: Do a tripod for sure.

Hal Elrod: Heck, yeah. Cool. Alright. Well, goal achievers, thank you for tuning in to the Achieve Your Goals podcast. And go out there and make this the best day and the best week of your life because there’s no good reason not to. Get the book, The Three Beliefs of Ego: A Sufferer’s Guide to Freedom and follow Aaron Abke on all social media platforms. I’m telling you, go down the YouTube Aaron Abke rabbit hole, 22 million views on YouTube. There’s a reason. His message resonates with people. So, love you so much. See you next week.

[END]